Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters




sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_Print sp_TopicIcon
Detroit Police Model 97
November 29, 2017
5:09 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 21
Member Since:
November 21, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

1951 Model 97 riot gun used by the Detroit Police Department. DPD stamped on the receiver behind the trigger.

 

JC20151202_222023.jpgImage Enlarger20151202_222036.jpgImage Enlarger20151202_222147.jpgImage Enlarger20151202_222228.jpgImage Enlarger

November 29, 2017
6:35 pm
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 10191
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Per the original Winchester records (Polishing Room), your Model 97 was actually manufactured early in the year 1944, shortly after Winchester had finished making Riot and Trench Guns for the U.S. military contracts.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

November 29, 2017
7:45 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 21
Member Since:
November 21, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Thanks Bert - I must have searched a serial number to a different model

JC

November 29, 2017
9:59 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1430
Member Since:
December 31, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

jcbyers@abrefrig.com said
Thanks Bert - I must have searched a serial number to a different model

JC  

In my collection I have a 1943 vintage M97 Trenchgun. It is marked  JPD 6 under the pistol grip. Very small letters. No one seems to know what PD had it. They never used it as the gun is 99% and unfired.   Big Larry

June 4, 2020
8:11 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 14
Member Since:
November 12, 2007
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

IMG_0759.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0780-1.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0761-1.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0765-1.JPGImage Enlarger

My Detroit Police 1897 take down riot MFG 1944. This 1897 was issued to the Harbor Master Bureau. It came from the curator of the Detroit Police museum and chief historian for the Detroit Police. If anybody knows of anymore DPD marked shotguns or handguns let me know. I really want to find one of the DPD marked trenchguns. My father just retired from DPD after 45 years we have about 35 different Detroit marked firearms.

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
June 4, 2020
8:56 pm
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 10191
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

aerojoe said
IMG_0759.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0780-1.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0761-1.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0765-1.JPGImage Enlarger

My Detroit Police 1897 take down riot MFG 1944. This 1897 was issued to the Harbor Master Bureau. It came from the curator of the Detroit Police museum and chief historian for the Detroit Police. If anybody knows of anymore DPD marked shotguns or handguns let me know. I really want to find one of the DPD marked trenchguns. My father just retired from DPD after 45 years we have about 35 different Detroit marked firearms.  

Interesting Riot Gun.  I have a lot of Model 1897/97 Riot Guns listed in my research survey.

It is interesting that you state it was manufactured in 1944.  Very few Model 97s were manufactured in that year (3,160), all in the 965000 - 968160 serial number range.  For my research survey, would you please provide me with the serial number on your Model 97 Riot Gun.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

June 4, 2020
9:20 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 14
Member Since:
November 12, 2007
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Bert H. said

aerojoe said
IMG_0759.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0780-1.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0761-1.JPGImage EnlargerIMG_0765-1.JPGImage Enlarger

My Detroit Police 1897 take down riot MFG 1944. This 1897 was issued to the Harbor Master Bureau. It came from the curator of the Detroit Police museum and chief historian for the Detroit Police. If anybody knows of anymore DPD marked shotguns or handguns let me know. I really want to find one of the DPD marked trenchguns. My father just retired from DPD after 45 years we have about 35 different Detroit marked firearms.  

Interesting Riot Gun.  I have a lot of Model 1897/97 Riot Guns listed in my research survey.

It is interesting that you state it was manufactured in 1944.  Very few Model 97s were manufactured in that year (3,160), all in the 965000 - 968160 serial number range.  For my research survey, would you please provide me with the serial number on your Model 97 Riot Gun.

Bert  

I looked at 2 sites oldguns.net says 1951 and Winchestercollector.org said 1944 so not sure which is right the serial #966731

June 4, 2020
9:45 pm
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 10191
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

aerojoe said

I looked at 2 sites oldguns.net says 1951 and Winchestercollector.org said 1944 so not sure which is right the serial #966731  

Oldguns.net is not accurate.  Your Model 97 was manufactured in February 1944 (as was the other Detroit PD Riot Gun that started this topic string).  Apparently the Detroit PD ordered and purchased an unknown quantity of them during the latter part of WW II.  Does the Detroit PD have any historical records of these guns in their Armory records?

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

June 5, 2020
12:35 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 14
Member Since:
November 12, 2007
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Bert H. said

Oldguns.net is not accurate.  Your Model 97 was manufactured in February 1944 (as was the other Detroit PD Riot Gun that started this topic string).  Apparently the Detroit PD ordered and purchased an unknown quantity of them during the latter part of WW II.  Does the Detroit PD have any historical records of these guns in their Armory records?

Bert  

Detroit has records all the way back to 1870's when they started issuing Dept guns I own the 293 and 143 gun ever issued by DPD they were Merwin hulberts. However the shotgun book has gone missing years ago probably after Detroit sold the 1897's to Century arms in the early 90's. BTW the majority of the DPD 97's were actual trench guns with bayonet lugs and heatshields I really want to find one of those for my DPD collection.

June 5, 2020
1:00 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 14
Member Since:
November 12, 2007
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
June 5, 2020
5:54 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1750
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Interesting topic.  I have heard of trench guns going to the civilian market but this is the first I have seen.  It is going to be hard to find what you are looking for.  An original trench gun is hard to find let alone one that has the DPD stamp.

June 6, 2020
4:06 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1599
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

aerojoe said
Some pictures of Detroit with 1897 Trench guns in use
67159352_10220935403081332_1452978313726263296_n.jpgImage Enlarger

  

I haven't seen much news about the current weaponry used by the Detroit Police. But would imagine, they don't "Affix Bayonets" any longer!

Maverick

ToolArray-SignatureLowRes-4.jpg

WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!

June 6, 2020
12:05 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 14
Member Since:
November 12, 2007
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Maverick said

aerojoe said
Some pictures of Detroit with 1897 Trench guns in use
67159352_10220935403081332_1452978313726263296_n.jpgImage Enlarger

  

I haven't seen much news about the current weaponry used by the Detroit Police. But would imagine, they don't "Affix Bayonets" any longer!

Maverick  

Standard issue is M&P .40 they are going to start a change over to M&P 9mm as soon as funds for ammunition is available. Long gun wise is M&P15's and Remington 870's. The M&P15's i believe have a bayonet lug but yes probably frowned upon in today's world

June 6, 2020
8:03 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1599
Member Since:
May 23, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

aerojoe said

Standard issue is M&P .40 they are going to start a change over to M&P 9mm as soon as funds for ammunition is available. Long gun wise is M&P15's and Remington 870's. The M&P15's i believe have a bayonet lug but yes probably frowned upon in today's world  

Why in the world would they want to downsize from the .40 to the 9mm? 

I've always been told the meth heads, crack heads, and PCP types respond much better to a .45 Caliber anyway. And with the 9mm they like to keep on trucking towards you with the kitchen knife in hand to cut your jugular even after you unload the clip into them. But what did I know, I'm not in law enforcement. 

Sincerely,

Maverick

ToolArray-SignatureLowRes-4.jpg

WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!

June 6, 2020
8:16 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1750
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Maverick said

Why in the world would they want to downsize from the .40 to the 9mm? 

Sincerely,

Maverick  

Because the cops of today can't handle the recoil as well especially on follow up shots.  Military did the same thing when they went to the 9 mm.  It has been proven in combat that you need a 45 to stop people quickly.  A 40 S&W is a good stopper too.   I'm sure there is a cost element here too.

June 6, 2020
9:33 pm
Avatar
Kingston, WA
Forum Posts: 10191
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Chuck said

Because the cops of today can't handle the recoil as well especially on follow up shots.  Military did the same thing when they went to the 9 mm.  It has been proven in combat that you need a 45 to stop people quickly.  A 40 S&W is a good stopper too.   I'm sure there is a cost element here too.  

The U.S. Military did not make the switch to 9mm because of recoil concerns.  They did it because the 9mm was/is the primary NATO round, and ammo is a lot easier to procure.  The U.S. Navy Submarine Fleet was the last military group to give up the Model 1911A1 handguns.  We still had them in our Small Arms inventory in the mid 1990s.  I did not have to qualify with the Beretta M9 until late 1996.

Bert

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

June 7, 2020
12:13 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 14
Member Since:
November 12, 2007
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Chuck said
Interesting topic.  I have heard of trench guns going to the civilian market but this is the first I have seen.  It is going to be hard to find what you are looking for.  An original trench gun is hard to find let alone one that has the DPD stamp.  

They actually come up here and there for auction the problem is it always seems to happen when I have other things more important to spend money on and they don't go cheap.

June 7, 2020
12:20 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 14
Member Since:
November 12, 2007
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Chuck said

Because the cops of today can't handle the recoil as well especially on follow up shots.  Military did the same thing when they went to the 9 mm.  It has been proven in combat that you need a 45 to stop people quickly.  A 40 S&W is a good stopper too.   I'm sure there is a cost element here too.  

Yes that is a big reason is the younger officers can't handle the .40 but not the only reason. The ammunition technology in the last 10-15 years has made the 9mm finally a good performing round Federal HST and Speer Gold dot G2 have come a long way. The other reason is 9mm is just cheaper figure $5 a box cheaper that is a lot cheaper when you figure DPD has 2000 officers that have to qualify twice a year. The other theory is the M&P 9 hold 2 more rounds so the officer will carry 6 extra rds.

June 7, 2020
5:37 am
Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2441
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Maverick said

Why in the world would they want to downsize from the .40 to the 9mm? 

I've always been told the meth heads, crack heads, and PCP types respond much better to a .45 Caliber anyway. And with the 9mm they like to keep on trucking towards you with the kitchen knife in hand to cut your jugular even after you unload the clip into them. But what did I know, I'm not in law enforcement. 

Sincerely,

Maverick  

Quite honestly the 9mm is probably a very good round given today’s technology and bullet design. OTOH 35+ yrs ago I was carrying handloaded 9mm ammo as a peace officer when factory ammo did not meet my requirements. In my later years I carried a 1911 .45 (still do!) but would feel well armed with 9mm or .40 and appropriate ammo. Two in the chest, one in the head, problem solved.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
June 7, 2020
4:46 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1750
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Bert H. said

The U.S. Military did not make the switch to 9mm because of recoil concerns.  They did it because the 9mm was/is the primary NATO round, and ammo is a lot easier to procure.  The U.S. Navy Submarine Fleet was the last military group to give up the Model 1911A1 handguns.  We still had them in our Small Arms inventory in the mid 1990s.  I did not have to qualify with the Beretta M9 until late 1996.

Bert  

Bert, you're right.  I was being a bit of a smart a**. 

Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 628

Currently Online: Brian
41 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)


Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 16

Topics: 7500

Posts: 62345


Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1021

Members: 9435

Moderators: 5

Admins: 3


Top Posters:

1873man: 4372

twobit: 2566

TXGunNut: 2441

clarence: 1851

Chuck: 1750

Maverick: 1599

Big Larry: 1430

JWA: 1325

Wincacher: 1185

jwm94: 1096

Navigation