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1897 Front sight Bead
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AH
January 1, 2021 - 3:31 pm

1sp_QuotePost

I ended up picking up an 1897 locally. It’s a solid frame C series, serial 1958xx, 1903 in very good condition overall. It was cut down at some point and is missing the front sight bead.  I’ve been looking around trying to find one that would closely match the original (or find an original). 

On midwestgunworks site they have a couple that look similar (SFSBR and 64101)

In 3×56,  is this the correct style of bead? Or should it be a bead with no “base” to it?

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10604
January 1, 2021 - 6:22 pm

2sp_QuotePost

Because your barrel has been cut, it really does not matter which specific bead sight you put back on it.  Either of the beads you found will work just fine, and are close to what the original bead looked like.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 4513
January 1, 2021 - 7:08 pm

3sp_QuotePost

AH said
I ended up picking up an 1897 locally. It’s a solid frame C series, serial 1958xx, 1903 in very good condition overall. It was cut down at some point and is missing the front sight bead.  I’ve been looking around trying to find one that would closely match the original (or find an original). 

On midwestgunworks site they have a couple that look similar (SFSBR and 64101)

In 3×56,  is this the correct style of bead? Or should it be a bead with no “base” to it?  

How do you know it was cut down?  What is the length of the barrel and what is the choke?  Full, modified or cylinder?

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10604
January 1, 2021 - 7:23 pm

4sp_QuotePost

Chuck said

How do you know it was cut down?  What is the length of the barrel and what is the choke?  Full, modified or cylinder?  

It is very evident that a barrel has been cut down when it is missing the front bead sight, and there is no threaded hole for either.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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AH
January 1, 2021 - 9:50 pm

5sp_QuotePost

It does have the threaded hole for a bead sight, just no sight.  It is approximately 24 inches and the barrel has no choke stamps, but does have the Winchester proof and patent dates.  The previous owner said he thought it had been cut, but it is not yet in my posession to confirm.

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10604
January 2, 2021 - 12:20 am

6sp_QuotePost

If the barrel truly has no choke marking on it, it is not an original Model 1897 barrel. They were all marked with one of the following; FULL; MOD; or CYL.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 4513
January 2, 2021 - 12:30 am

7sp_QuotePost

AH said
It does have the threaded hole for a bead sight, just no sight.  It is approximately 24 inches and the barrel has no choke stamps, but does have the Winchester proof and patent dates.  The previous owner said he thought it had been cut, but it is not yet in my posession to confirm.  

The beads do disappear sometimes.  When you measure the barrel you have to include the portion that is threaded into the receiver.  What do you mean by proof mark?  Usually the choke indication is on the left side of the barrel near the receiver.

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AH
January 2, 2021 - 1:06 am

8sp_QuotePost

Ill reply with more info once I have it in my hands.  From the pics I have, it does not have a choke stamp, but I can make out that it does have the WP stamp and the Winchester patent dates stamping.

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Melbourne Australia
Posts: 168
January 2, 2021 - 2:56 am

9sp_QuotePost

Is the 1897 front bead the same as the 1887? I am after the correct dimensions for the 1887 front bead if anyone has them.

Chris

A man can never have too many WINCHESTERS...

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10604
January 2, 2021 - 6:20 pm

10sp_QuotePost

Aussie Chris said
Is the 1897 front bead the same as the 1887? I am after the correct dimensions for the 1887 front bead if anyone has them.

Chris  

Chris,

The bead size was different for specific Model 1897 variations, and different production times. I have included pictures of several factory original Model 1897 Riot Guns… note the difference in the sight bead.

Bert

Solid-Frame-Riot-Gun-77388.jpgImage EnlargerRiot-Gun-SF-622200.jpgImage Enlarger

Riot-Gun-TD-669755.jpgImage EnlargerRiot-Gun-TD-996095.jpgImage Enlarger

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 4513
January 2, 2021 - 8:50 pm

11sp_QuotePost

Aussie Chris said
Is the 1897 front bead the same as the 1887? I am after the correct dimensions for the 1887 front bead if anyone has them.

Chris  

Chris I have an 1887 10 gauge that I can get measurements.  I’m not sure if it makes a difference whether a 12 ga. or 10 ga.  It looks like the first one that Bert shows.  It is not just a bead.

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Posts: 41
January 2, 2021 - 9:42 pm

12sp_QuotePost

Does it have a metal butt plate I have a 97 1903 but it was cut so no help on the real bead size. My 1887 looks like the first one also and it’s a 12 ga

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Melbourne Australia
Posts: 168
January 3, 2021 - 9:21 pm

13sp_QuotePost

Thanks for the pictures Bert. Pump actions are banned here so the 1897 is quite rare to see.

Chuck, yes just some clear pictures of the front bead and any dimensions you may be able to take please.

Is the 1887 bead made of brass, steel or something else?

Chris

A man can never have too many WINCHESTERS...

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AH
January 4, 2021 - 4:18 am

14sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
If the barrel truly has no choke marking on it, it is not an original Model 1897 barrel. They were all marked with one of the following; FULL; MOD; or CYL.  

I ended up picking up another 1897 from an auction.  Serial 7773xx (should be 1923) with a 26″ CYL bore.  Two questions on this one (one related to the bead sight).

– It has a red Jostam “Anti-Flinch Recoil Pad” with black spacer and patent dates on the butt end of 1915 and 1917.  Since the gun was made in 1923, I’m guessing it was an aftermarket install, or would it be a custom order from the factory?

– Did some 1897’s come with silver front sight beads, or were they all gold from the factory?

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10604
January 4, 2021 - 4:42 am

15sp_QuotePost

It is entirely possible that the Jostam recoil pad was factory installed, as it was listed in the catalogs as available on special order.  What is the length of pull on the gun you just purchased?  The 26-inch CYL bore barrel points towards it being a Brush Gun.

I have seen both silver and gold beads installed on Model 1897 barrels.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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AH
January 4, 2021 - 5:04 am

16sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
It is entirely possible that the Jostam recoil pad was factory installed, as it was listed in the catalogs as available on special order.  What is the length of pull on the gun you just purchased?  The 26-inch CYL bore barrel points towards it being a Brush Gun.

I have seen both silver and gold beads installed on Model 1897 barrels.  

The info for it shows 14” LOP. Am I missing any other significance to it being a “brush gun”, other than being easier to handle in tighter spaces than a field gun? 

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Kingston, WA
Posts: 10604
January 4, 2021 - 5:41 am

17sp_QuotePost

The Model 1897 “Brush Gun” was a cataloged variation, just like a “Riot Gun”, or a “Trap Gun”. One of the defining features of the Brush Gun variation was a 26-inch CYL bore barrel. Each one of the Model 1789 variations had its own stock dimensions (LOP), and the Brush Gun was shorter than the standard Field grade guns, but none of the variations were as long as 14-inches. That indicates to me that the recoil pad was most likely installed after the fact.

WACA 6571L, Historian & Board of Director Member
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

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Posts: 4513
January 4, 2021 - 6:43 pm

18sp_QuotePost

Aussie Chris said
Thanks for the pictures Bert. Pump actions are banned here so the 1897 is quite rare to see.

Chuck, yes just some clear pictures of the front bead and any dimensions you may be able to take please.

Is the 1887 bead made of brass, steel or something else?

Chris  

Here is a picture of the front sight on my 1887.  The bead is brass.  Approximately .145″ tall and .116″ in diameter. 

1887-Sight.jpgImage Enlarger

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Melbourne Australia
Posts: 168
January 4, 2021 - 7:56 pm

19sp_QuotePost

Thanks Chuck, that’s what I wanted to see.

Lets see the whole shotgun!

A man can never have too many WINCHESTERS...

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Northwestern Ontario
Posts: 298
January 4, 2021 - 9:55 pm

20sp_QuotePost

Aussie Chris said
Thanks for the pictures Bert. Pump actions are banned here so the 1897 is quite rare to see.

Chuck, yes just some clear pictures of the front bead and any dimensions you may be able to take please.

Is the 1887 bead made of brass, steel or something else?

Chris  

A bit off topic but why would a pump action shotgun be banned and if they are how do people manage to hold onto them. What types of shotguns are allowed? That seems pretty draconian but I would not be surprised if something similar will be coming to Canada soon with the present administration I fear. 

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