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1897 Engraved Trap
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October 6, 2024 - 9:21 pm
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Any comments on the engraving? Does not look factory? No factory letter shown. $13K now!

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1068364839

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October 6, 2024 - 9:36 pm
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cjs57 said
Any comments on the engraving? Does not look factory? No factory letter shown. $13K now!

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1068364839

  

I’d like to see that letter as well, engraving doesn’t look familiar. It would certainly sell better if a copy was attached. Stainless action and feed ramp? First time I’ve heard of that. Metal has had more time on the buffing wheel than we’re used to seeing on a factory finished gun. 

 

Mike

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October 6, 2024 - 9:46 pm
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TXGunNut said

cjs57 said

Any comments on the engraving? Does not look factory? No factory letter shown. $13K now!

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1068364839

 

I’d like to see that letter as well, engraving doesn’t look familiar. It would certainly sell better if a copy was attached. Stainless action and feed ramp? First time I’ve heard of that. Metal has had more time on the buffing wheel than we’re used to seeing on a factory finished gun. 

Mike

 

I was going to say the same thing…not sure I like that refinishing job for that kind of money.

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October 6, 2024 - 9:57 pm
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Wood is a bit questionable at best and I’ll defer to the experts on the recoil pad. I like the gun but the story fails the sniff test, IMHO.

 

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October 6, 2024 - 10:37 pm
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It is a totally fabricated gun! 

There is no CFM letter for that gun (it is too late to letter).  The s/n tells me that it was manufactured in October 1911.  It was originally a Trap Gun, but not factory engraved, or with a recoil pad.  The barrel is at least 12-years newer than the rest of the gun.  Winchester did not begin marking the barrel “MODEL 97” until 1923.  The barrel currently on that gun appears to be taken off of a standard grade gun, and it has been reblued.  The wood has definitely been refinished (oil finish was standard on the Trap Gun).

Somebody is going to get taken to the cleaners on that gun.  At best, it is a $750 gun.

Bert

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October 6, 2024 - 11:47 pm
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Bert H. said
It is a totally fabricated gun! 

There is no CFM letter for that gun (it is too late to letter).  The s/n tells me that it was manufactured in October 1911.  It was originally a Trap Gun, but not factory engraved, or with a recoil pad.  The barrel is at least 12-years newer than the rest of the gun.  Winchester did not begin marking the barrel “MODEL 97” until 1923.  The barrel currently on that gun appears to be taken off of a standard grade gun, and it has been reblued.  The wood has definitely been refinished (oil finish was standard on the Trap Gun).

Somebody is going to get taken to the cleaners on that gun.  At best, it is a $750 gun.

Bert

  

Ouch. Embarassed

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October 7, 2024 - 12:32 am
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Jeremy P said

Bert H. said

It is a totally fabricated gun! 

There is no CFM letter for that gun (it is too late to letter).  The s/n tells me that it was manufactured in October 1911.  It was originally a Trap Gun, but not factory engraved, or with a recoil pad.  The barrel is at least 12-years newer than the rest of the gun.  Winchester did not begin marking the barrel “MODEL 97” until 1923.  The barrel currently on that gun appears to be taken off of a standard grade gun, and it has been reblued.  The wood has definitely been refinished (oil finish was standard on the Trap Gun).

Somebody is going to get taken to the cleaners on that gun.  At best, it is a $750 gun.

Bert

Ouch. Embarassed

  

That is a big understatement.  I just hope the buyer does not come here looking for validation of his/her purchase.

As it turns out, I just finished a detailed article discussing the Model 1897… it is 33-pages long, and it will need to be split in half to be published in the Winchester Collector magazine.

Bert

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October 7, 2024 - 1:01 am
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A Mess

If you can’t convince them, confuse them

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October 7, 2024 - 1:08 am
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Bert H. said

 

That is a big understatement.  I just hope the buyer does not come here looking for validation of his/her purchase.

As it turns out, I just finished a detailed article discussing the Model 1897… it is 33-pages long, and it will need to be split in half to published in the Winchester Collector magazine.

Bert

  

I look forward to that. I need to increase my knowledge with the 97s for sure. I have an “ok” one in 16ga. (sn 436567), nothing special about it, found it at a small auction and impulse bought it.

I knew I didn’t like this one when I saw it but didn’t know some of those details right of the top of my head….I knew you would though!

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October 7, 2024 - 1:38 am
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Jeremy P said

Bert H. said

 

That is a big understatement.  I just hope the buyer does not come here looking for validation of his/her purchase.

As it turns out, I just finished a detailed article discussing the Model 1897… it is 33-pages long, and it will need to be split in half to published in the Winchester Collector magazine.

Bert

  

I look forward to that. I need to increase my knowledge with the 97s for sure. I have an “ok” one in 16ga. (sn 436567), nothing special about it, found it at a small auction and impulse bought it.

I knew I didn’t like this one when I saw it but didn’t know some of those details right of the top of my head….I knew you would though!

  

The Model 1897 occupies a soft spot in my heart, and I have more than a handful of them in my collection.  Because so little has ever been written about them, I began a detailed survey of them more than 25-years ago.  Today, I have many thousands of them documented in the survey, and I am still actively recording them.  They were manufactured for just over 60-years (May 1897 – December 1957), with a total production on 990,521 guns.

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October 7, 2024 - 3:38 am
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Bert-

I’m hoping somewhere in those 33 pages you’ll expend a few keystrokes paying homage to the 1893. I really enjoyed studying the 1893 you had in Cody. The evolution of the 1893 and 1897 is indeed fascinating and worthy of our attention. Shotgun ammunition underwent fundamental changes during this time and that certainly must have made things interesting for JMB et al.

Back on topic, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere Trap Guns were and are often used hard and good ones are sometimes refinished and/or upgraded. I’m thinking this gun is just that, a hard-used and refurbished Trap Gun. I wouldn’t be surprised if it had been refinished more than once, this old warhorse was likely a serious shooter’s favorite gun. The engraving is a bit of a puzzle. I wonder if the receiver was actually left in the white after engraving, only problem with that theory is the barrel was apparently reblued after engraving. I still like the gun but the current bid is proof that P. T. Barnum was right! 

 

Mike

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October 7, 2024 - 6:08 am
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TXGunNut said
Bert-

I’m hoping somewhere in those 33 pages you’ll expend a few keystrokes paying homage to the 1893. I really enjoyed studying the 1893 you had in Cody. The evolution of the 1893 and 1897 is indeed fascinating and worthy of our attention. Shotgun ammunition underwent fundamental changes during this time and that certainly must have made things interesting for JMB et al.

Back on topic, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere Trap Guns were and are often used hard and good ones are sometimes refinished and/or upgraded. I’m thinking this gun is just that, a hard-used and refurbished Trap Gun. I wouldn’t be surprised if it had been refinished more than once, this old warhorse was likely a serious shooter’s favorite gun. The engraving is a bit of a puzzle. I wonder if the receiver was actually left in the white after engraving, only problem with that theory is the barrel was apparently reblued after engraving. I still like the gun but the current bid is proof that P. T. Barnum was right! 

 

Mike

  

Mike,

Please refer to the Summer 2017 edition of the Winchester Collector magazine…

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October 7, 2024 - 1:59 pm
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Bert H. said

Jeremy P said

Bert H. said

 

That is a big understatement.  I just hope the buyer does not come here looking for validation of his/her purchase.

As it turns out, I just finished a detailed article discussing the Model 1897… it is 33-pages long, and it will need to be split in half to published in the Winchester Collector magazine.

Bert

  

I look forward to that. I need to increase my knowledge with the 97s for sure. I have an “ok” one in 16ga. (sn 436567), nothing special about it, found it at a small auction and impulse bought it.

I knew I didn’t like this one when I saw it but didn’t know some of those details right of the top of my head….I knew you would though!

  

The Model 1897 occupies a soft spot in my heart, and I have more than a handful of them in my collection.  Because so little has ever been written about them, I began a detailed survey of them more than 25-years ago.  Today, I have many thousands of them documented in the survey, and I am still actively recording them.  They were manufactured for just over 60-years (May 1897 – December 1957), with a total production on 990,521 guns.

  

Bert do you have E931674 in your survey?  If not, I can send particulars and photos.

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October 7, 2024 - 4:47 pm
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Bert-

Your 2017 1893 article was indeed worth revisiting. I just figured the 1897 story is hard to tell without mentioning the 1893 and maybe the 1887. I suppose that is why your 1897 article is 33 pages! Did Winchester ever put a soft rubber recoil pad on the 1897? Have you made any progress locating all those “missing” 1893’s?

 

Mike

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October 7, 2024 - 4:53 pm
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Nevada Paul said

Bert H. said

Jeremy P said

Bert H. said

 

That is a big understatement.  I just hope the buyer does not come here looking for validation of his/her purchase.

As it turns out, I just finished a detailed article discussing the Model 1897… it is 33-pages long, and it will need to be split in half to published in the Winchester Collector magazine.

Bert

I look forward to that. I need to increase my knowledge with the 97s for sure. I have an “ok” one in 16ga. (sn 436567), nothing special about it, found it at a small auction and impulse bought it.

I knew I didn’t like this one when I saw it but didn’t know some of those details right of the top of my head….I knew you would though!

The Model 1897 occupies a soft spot in my heart, and I have more than a handful of them in my collection.  Because so little has ever been written about them, I began a detailed survey of them more than 25-years ago.  Today, I have many thousands of them documented in the survey, and I am still actively recording them.  They were manufactured for just over 60-years (May 1897 – December 1957), with a total production on 990,521 guns.

Bert do you have E931674 in your survey?  If not, I can send particulars and photos.

Paul,

I do not have it yet.  Based on the serial number, it was manufactured in late January 1942.  Please send the specifics to include the factory markings on the barrel.  I suspect that it will have a “41” date stamped barrel.

Bert

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October 7, 2024 - 8:09 pm
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TXGunNut said
Bert-

Your 2017 1893 article was indeed worth revisiting. I just figured the 1897 story is hard to tell without mentioning the 1893 and maybe the 1887. I suppose that is why your 1897 article is 33 pages! Did Winchester ever put a soft rubber recoil pad on the 1897? Have you made any progress locating all those “missing” 1893’s?

Mike  

I do mention the Model 1893 in my Model 1897 article (and even mention the 2017 article).  In the interval between 2017 and today, I have increased the documented number of Model 1893 shotguns to (587).

Yes, Winchester did indeed offer the Model 1897 with a Silver’s solid rubber recoil pad.  In later years they offered their own solid rubber recoil pad.

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October 7, 2024 - 8:09 pm
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I’ll drag it out of the safe and take some photos.

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October 8, 2024 - 1:07 am
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After reading the description on that model 97 trap engraved gun “master engraved” I think I needed taller boots!

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October 8, 2024 - 2:17 am
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Looks like a case of buyers remorse, the gun has been relisted

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October 8, 2024 - 2:33 am
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Tedk said
Looks like a case of buyers remorse, the gun has been relisted

  

I do not believe that it actually sold.  I suspect that the seller stopped (pulled) it, and then relisted it.  He has done this before with grossly overpriced non original Winchesters.

Take note that it now has a much lower BIN price, but that it is still ridiculously high.  Additionally, none of the current Schill bidders are the same as the previous listing.

Winchester 1897 12ga 1of1! Holy grail! Master engraved! Black diamond! – Pump Action Shotguns at GunBroker.com : 1069897317

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