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November 7, 2015
Online
No words for now. Just glad no one was hurt.
Mike
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tionesta1 said
Mike,Glad no one was hurt either. What do you think happened?
Al
I will second that statement.
Mike, which gun were you shooting, and what was the load?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Online
It was the 1897 Black Diamond Trap Gun I bought last weekend, load was a 1200 FPS one ounce Estate factory. I was on my second station shooting a round of Trap. Took a few birds to figure out where to hold but was having a decent run. Thank goodness I was on station five so there was no one to my right. Gun apparently fired out of battery while I was chambering a round, all I can think of is the firing pin stuck or hammer somehow dropped before the bolt closed and locked. I’m not sure the latter is possible. Case head looks a bit odd, not sure what to make of it. Looks like firing pin did not retract before bolt moved. I hadn’t shouldered the gun and my finger was not on the trigger. I didn’t detail clean it as I planned, just took off the wood and sprayed it down with Gun Scrubber before applying CLP. Firing pin seemed (and seems) free enough. Action slicked up nice and seemed to be moving properly. Failure happened on my eighth bird and all other rounds fired normally.
Mike
Major bummer Mike. Glad you are OK, my condolences on your 97.
I picked up a real rag of a 97 a few weeks ago I am going to part out but I don’t believe it will do you much good. The one I acquired is a solid frame and yours is a takedown.
I’ve had 1 blow up in my lifetime and it too was factory ammo. Remington golden bullets out of a model 75. I believe the casing was filled with priming compound and not powder. I don’t know if you could get enough powder in a 22 shell to “blow up”. I had to send the remaining ammo in that container back to Remington, Their reply was there were some “pressure anomalies” in some of the remaining rounds. They did reimburse me the cost of the rifle and replaced the ammo X 2.
Hope you can find a receiver and get her up and running again!
Best,
Erin
November 7, 2015
Online
Thanks, Erin. Haven’t checked for other damage but the operating rod (?) somehow detached and the bolt is a little questionable. I’m afraid it’s little more than a parts gun at this point and I suspect most parts are very well worn after 120 years and possibly hundreds of thousands of rounds fired. I think it will just sit in the rack for awhile.
I had my Model 12 Black Diamond along but didn’t have the nerve to finish the round with it. They were quite a pair, a couple had never seen an 1897 Trap Gun.
Mike
I completely understand. Take your time and do a complete damage assessment to see if it is viable to put back together. Something definitely broke on the slide or bolt to become separated. Luckily the bolt didn’t become a projectile out the rear of the action! Let me know if you decide to put it back together, I may have some of the parts you may need.
Best,
Erin
Erin Grivicich said They did reimburse me the cost of the rifle and replaced the ammo X 2.
They were jumping with joy that you hadn’t turned the accident over to an ambulance chaser.
November 7, 2015
Online
Thanks again, Erin. I’m warming up to the idea of replacing the receiver, pretty sure the issue was caused by a gummed up or damaged firing pin. Will know more when I get it apart. I don’t know how the bolt and rod became separated, frame may have flexed enough for things to pop loose. We’ll see.
Mike
Mike I’m really glad you are OK.
This is an example of what can happen when you shoot old guns. You never know when something will give it up. That’s why I stress to not shoot hot loads in old guns. Not that this is what you were doing.
November 7, 2015
Online
Chuck said
Mike I’m really glad you are OK.This is an example of what can happen when you shoot old guns. You never know when something will give it up. That’s why I stress to not shoot hot loads in old guns. Not that this is what you were doing.
Thanks, Chuck, and you’re right. This gun has spent years in the stable of a dedicated Trap shooter, perhaps decades. In this case I think I’m partly to blame because I didn’t take the time to detail strip and clean a gun I knew was badly gummed up. Firing pin seemed to be moving OK but when I disassembled it from the bolt tonight I had to drive it out with a punch, pin was covered with a hard deposit as was the channel inside the bolt. A stuck firing pin IMHO would cause the gun to fire out of battery. Even a light load is considerable pressure when things go wrong. In this case I think the only damage was caused as a result of the stuck firing pin, apparently no parts failed in spite of the gun’s long, hard service. It could certainly happen after I put it back together, if I do so. Something to consider.
Mike
November 7, 2015
Online
Well, it’s a start. May be ahead to just bag up all the pieces and let Turnbull’s folks work their magic.
Mike
Mike,
That receiver should clean up fine with proper polishing. Has some surface rust but does not appear to be pitted.
Did you ever come up with a parts list?
Erin
November 7, 2015
Online
Erin Grivicich said
Mike,Did you ever come up with a parts list?
Erin
Erin-
Only a start. I damaged the trigger guard but I won’t know about the carrier and bolt until I get the receiver cleaned and start going back together. Receiver was twisted somehow and everything was in a bind. With a straight receiver everything may work fine. I’m thinking I’ll need to break out my ultrasonic cleaner to clean the receiver before I start going back together. May need a few thread chasers to clean up the holes. I put all the parts in a fruitcake tin, I suppose next step is to clean and assess.
Suggestions? I’m in a bit over my head so I’m going to proceed slowly and cautiously. I had to replace the left extractor in my last 1897, not my idea of a good time but we all survived. Hope I never have to use reproduction parts again.
Mike
Mike, I about expect my advice isn’t needed, and maybe not wanted. For all that the slow ahead approach is the best. If things start to get you angry or stymied, put it down and walk away for a while. That has been the hardest lesson for me to learn–I tend to get bull headed and crash ahead. Once I learned to put problems down, cogitate a bit, and try again when I am calmer and more observant, etc, things go better. I can’t imagine the pressures that twisted the original receiver, and would then expect interior parts to be similarly distorted in strange ways. However, they could move and release the pressures, so may not be as bad as may be expected. Good luck, and let us know the outcome, please. Tim
November 7, 2015
Online
Thanks, Tim. I’ll always welcome your advice. I suppose metal fatigue could have been a factor, this old gun has very possibly fired more rounds than I have seen. My first 1897 was fired so much it had worn to the point the action would bind. This one felt great after I de-gunked it. I, too have a hard time knowing when to put down the tools and put away the pieces for another day. I damaged the trigger guard because the frame had it in a bind. I may have been able to figure it out but I didn’t take the time. The bolt and carrier were in a bind as well but I did not abuse them.
This could prove interesting, will indeed post my progress…when I find myself in the right frame of mind to do it properly. Meanwhile two of my Citori’s are having bottom barrel firing pin issues with Federal shells. For some reason I won’t attempt to fix these guns. I have a really good gunsmith for that.
Mike
TXGunNut said
I suppose metal fatigue could have been a factor, this old gun has very possibly fired more rounds than I have seen.
Mike
Mike,
On the subject of metal fatigue I would like to share a simple demonstration Bell Helicopters used to give on the subject. They would open a new box of paper clips and hand two out to everyone in the room. Then they asked everyone pickup one of the the clips and bend the outer bend straight and back again, that’s one cycle, and repeat until their paper clip broke in the bend. The number of cycles from the people present in the room varied from 20 to 40. Then they asked everyone to pickup the second paper clip and bend it 19 times. Finally they asked the question, Would you use this paper clip if your life depended on it!
Most critical parts on Aircraft are life limited and records of cycles are kept in the aircraft logs. After that demonstration I never complained about replacing an expensive part that had cycled out but looked like new. I just complained about the price. T/R
Metal fatigue explains the failure of a moving part, but does it apply to a stationary part like the rcvr? Makes me wonder if the same damage might not have occurred to a low-use rcvr if subjected to such a premature detonation of the ctg.
November 7, 2015
Online
Good point, Clarence. My only answer is that only some parts of a gun were meant to withstand and contain the pressure encountered when a gun is fired. The back end of the receiver was probably not intended to withstand the impact of the bolt in this situation. I don’t know that metal fatigue was a factor here, just can’t rule it out in a 120 year old firearm with many thousands of rounds fired. As soon as I take the time to examine the bolt and firing pin I’ll have a better answer but for now I still feel the major contributing factor was negligence on my part in not taking the time to detail strip and clean a gun that I knew to be badly gummed up.
Mike
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