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November 7, 2015
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Fellow brass benders, I just asked myself this question and I’m going to need some time to think about my answer. In the meantime I’d like to know what you consider to be your most intriguing (or maybe frustrating) cartridge and why. Sometimes a cartridge just falls together on my bench; brass and loading dies are readily available, production mould drops the perfect bullet and the first load I try is as good as I can shoot. Another cartridge entails a scavenger hunt for brass and loading dies, a custom mould (or three) and months (or years) of load development. I’ll never be able to answer the “favorite cartridge” question but I certainly have some cartridges that have kept me entertained and frustrated.
I’m working on my answer, in the meantime I’d like to read yours.
Mike
November 7, 2015
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I have a non-answer but it’s rather amusing. I ordered a Lyman 375449 die a few years back for my first 38-55. As the bullets dropped .377 and the bore (later) slugged .380 it was a miserable failure. A few months later I was looking at my pristine Big Bore in .375 Winchester and about the same time I ran across a nearly forgotten hoard of new .375 Winchester brass. A set of dies has been languishing on my loading bench for decades. A quick perusal of my loading manuals and powder dump and before you know it I had ammo loaded and my safe queen BB was headed for the range! I quickly checked the sight adjustment at the 50 yard line and moved to the 100. First group (with receiver peep sight) was under 2”. I zeroed the sights and the next group was centered on the bull and again somewhat under 2”. Quite honestly it was a letdown. It was like shooting a trophy buck while before unloading your gear at the deer lease. That rifle is again a safe queen, hasn’t seen the light of day since!
Mike
The most frustrating cartridge I have loaded is the original 22 Hornet… if you are doing everything perfectly, you will have a lot of failures. These days, I buy and shoot factory 22 Hornet ammo, choosing to only reload for the 22 K-Hornet. I also once reloaded 1,000 rounds of 9mm pistol ammo… never again!
Conversely, I really enjoy reloading the .44 Mag (my competition load was 27.5 grains of WW-296 under a 220-gr SIL FMJ bullet). Caution… I do not recommend that anyone try that load unless you own a Ruger Super Redhawk.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Mike, and Bert too, there can also be a time factor into the “frustration” of loading for a particular caliber/rifle. My first efforts to load and shoot the .405 were frustrating, challenging, and expensive. I had a model 1895 in very good shape, a deluxe with very good bore. I determined to shoot it. Bullets were available through the original Barnes Bullets, but were the ever typical .411 diameter and the bore slugged close to .413, a not unusual situation. Powder and primers were readily available, and “Cartridges of the World” gave some load data. Now–BRASS was a real problem. Original cartridges were occasionally available but the price per cartridge was significant and had I bought any of the original Winchester cartridges I would have kept them rather than do destructive testing of them. Finally I found B.E.L.L. brass at about $2.00 per piece back in the day (I would guess 1981 or 1982, after getting back from being stationed in Europe. They were “basic” brass so had to have quite a bit trimmed off to get to .405 Win length. I bought a micro tubing cutter to get the bulk of the brass necks cut off, then squared and finished trimming to length with a newly purchased trimmer. I loaded with IMR 3031 and accuracy was acceptable but not stellar as I don’t think the bullets bumped up to seal the grooves. I always have had bad carbon fouling for 8 to 10 inches in front of the chamber. But I did pull together the equipment and supplies to eventually shoot my .405! Now days, Hornady brass and bullets are reasonably available (although they no longer supply brass as a component and bullets are hard to find). Some of my most accurate cartridges were loaded with bullets formed by a Buck Reardon, of WI, up until he died. His bullets were formed with thinner jackets and soft lead cores, so they obturated better in my opinion, plus a box of 50 were weight sorted to less than a half grain from heaviest to lightest. At one point when B.E.L.L. was no longer in business and my brass had failed through use, I bought some 9.6X something and had to turn the body just ahead of the rim to make them viable. Rims were a little narrow, but worked. I worked harder on that than any other cartridge I think that I have loaded. Tim
November 7, 2015
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Hadn’t even thought of the hundreds of thousands of .38 Specials I’ve loaded, or the tens of thousands of .45ACP and 9mm rounds. I suppose that’s why I refuse to reload shot shells. I want to sit down with a handful or small box full of brass and turn out a small quantity of interesting ammunition, not operate a manufacturing facility. OTOH it seems my friend Graham shares the nemesis of the 22 Hornet with you, Bert. He’s a meticulous reloader but he has never been able to come up with a handload that works for the 22 Hornet.
This morning at breakfast I was looking at a box of 32-40 rounds. They’ve been on my kitchen table for several weeks and it’s doubtful they’ll be going anywhere this weekend.
Mike
My most frustrating round is the 35 WCF. Everything about it should have been a lot easier than the older guns. Modern brass and bullets are available. Just put the pieces together and shoot it? Well it shoots but not as good as most of my black powder guns. Haven’t shot it in a couple of years. Maybe I should try again. This gun is nearly in safe queen condition.
I’ve always enjoyed reloading all the Winchester pistol-sized calibers. My latest headache has been reloading .300 WSM. Having problems with collapsed shoulders.
Actual intrigue though would be the 70-150, man what a cartridge!
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Most frustrating: .577/450 Took a while when I first started to find the shotgun brass and then I didn’t have a press with enough clearance and umph to form it. I bought a rock chucker and the first few pieces of brass I destroyed. Do you know you shouldn’t just slather it in lube and force it up in one pass? Of course you do but I didn’t (back then) so then I learned about annealing. Then I had to buy torch. Burnt myself learning and almost set the garage on fire. Evidently there’s no tip over switch on a hand held propane torch. Rolled right under Household-6’s Acadia and I was scrambling on all fours to get it. Anyway, long story longer, I finally got about 15 cases formed and brought the LSA Martini, that I bartered for in Afghanistan, back to life.
Most enjoyable; straight walled pistol cases, mostly .32, .357, and .44 maggies.
Technically, the glass is always full; half liquid, half air....
WACA #10293
November 7, 2015
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I’ve concluded that my must frustrating cartridge is probably one of my favorites. I’ve owned 32 Special 94’s for several years and have also loaded and cast for it since I bought my first one. I even bought a late pre-64 (1957) 94 and fitted it with a receiver sight to use for a load development “test mule”. Every now and then I’ll scratch my head, consult my load and range notes, and load up 10 or 20. Then some day I’ll throw them in my range ammo bag and head for the range. If I get around to shooting them I’m invariably disappointed. The gaschecked bullets I cast fit the bore well, the powder charges are published and recommended loads, I load to normal specs and carefully place a moderate crimp on the case mouth. To date I have had a few loads that are incapable of producing anything resembling a group and a few that were rather poor, measuring 4-5 inches at the smallest. The problem is that I’ve never taken the time to focus on this cartridge. I may try a different rifle but I like the sights on my test mule. Maybe someday.
Mike
Tim, I used the Reardon bullets in my 86’s. My only regret was not filling the self. T/R
Maverick, How do you resize and get the bullet in a 300 WSM or a 270 WSM without damage to the case? You can’t apply pressure with the press. T/R
November 7, 2015
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I find most cartridges interesting but one of the most intriguing is probably the 38WCF(38-40). Despite the name and even the markings on a multitude of 1873’s it is NOT a 38 caliber cartridge. The label 38-40 makes little more sense but at least it mentions the correct caliber. The 44-40(44WCF) denotes a 44 caliber (actually closer to 43) and 40 grains of black powder. 32-20 denotes 32 caliber, 20 grains of BP. We know the 38-40 is a 40 caliber bullet and the original case probably held 38 grains of BP. Go figure. And then we consider the 44WCF and 38WCF are for all practical purposes ballistic twins with very similar bullet mass, diameter, energy and trajectory. Why bother?
All kidding aside I’m aware of the theories behind the origin of the name and I’m also aware of the marketing advantage of a cartridge that may be perceived as being lighter, faster or flatter-shooting. And…I like the profile of the cartridge and enjoy loading and casting for it. The profile makes it ideal for a repeating rifle. Since I avoid most things 43 the 38WCF is a natural choice for me when I tire of mashing scarce and pricey 32WCF brass and fumbling tiny 100 grain bullets. It’s pleasant (and cheap!) to shoot with my cast bullet reloads and is reasonably accurate. It is also a fun gun to explain to other shooters at the range. If you’ll look closely you may be able to tell that my profile picture is a box of my 38WCF ammo.
I like the cartridge. It’s a little odd, it’s interesting, and it works.
Mike
Mike, when I was 16 or 17 I got ahold of a Marlin 1892 in .32 Long Colt. I made the grave error of trading it away after a year or two and regretted it ever after. Two years ago I found one like it. Reuniting my self with the little girl I quickly discovered it had a rimfire firing pin. I set it aside for awhile then one day I remembered my old .32 had an extra firing pin in the hollow of the stock. I removed the butt plate and sure enough there was the center fire pin, which began the search for .32 L. C. ammo. I found R.C.C. Brass, from your beautiful state, and had some made with the correct headstamp. I then had a mould cut for the .315 heeled bullets. Loading 1.7 gr. of Blue Dot made the old gal bark again with very good accuracy. All warm and fuzzy.
My most frustrating reload has to be .44 Mag. shot shells. I ordered shot capsules from Brownell’s and quickly found I do not have the exacting touch needed to seat and crimp the delicate capsules, after promptly crushing 10 or so capsules and scattering about a 1/2 pound of no.12 shot all over my bench. I then had to spend a good amount of time cleaning itty bitty lead balls out of the mechanism of my press. At the range I found accuracy and pattern from my S&W 29 to be a lot less than desirable at more than 6 or 8 feet. Not worth the time or effort.
U.S. Army combat vet, 32 years CCFD Lt. (retired), NRA Benefactor member, Marlin Firearms Collector Asso., Cody Firearms Museum member - 89213093, WACA member - 11928, Griffin Gun Club board member, Hunter, BPCR shooter, Hand loader, Bullet Caster
Lt. Mike said
I found R.C.C. Brass, from your beautiful state, and had some made with the correct headstamp.
I have had several phone conversations with these guys and can’t get them to make some brass for me. Mr Robinson keeps telling me that someone will call me. Several phone calls and emails later still no response?
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
Lt. Mike said
I found R.C.C. Brass, from your beautiful state, and had some made with the correct headstamp.I have had several phone conversations with these guys and can’t get them to make some brass for me. Mr Robinson keeps telling me that someone will call me. Several phone calls and emails later still no response?
Can’t recall hearing of R.C.C. Brass, where are they located? Can’t say I know of a custom mould maker who makes moulds for heeled bullets but I suspect Tom @ Accurate could do it if you know what you want. Sounds like quite the adventure putting ammo together for that old Marlin, Lt. Mike.
Mike
Chuck,
The last time I talked to Mr. Roberson he told me that a disgruntled (fired?) employee had wiped out most of the control data base from his CNC machines and that they were in the process of doing a rebuild. I’m not a machinist by any sense of the word but I would think this sort of damage would be catastrophic to a small business. I have no idea what it would take in time and money to recover from this. He seemed to be a really nice guy to deal with, to me anyway. Very helpful with cartridge dimensions, head stamp, etc.
Mike,
As best I can remember Old West Bullet Moulds, 1175 17 1/4 Road, Fruita Co 81521 supplied my mould. Sorry I don’t have a phone number available, Web address is http://www.oldwestbulletmoulds.com. I also bought a set of dies from them for the .32 LC.
Roberson Cartridge Company, LLC is in Amarillo. I don’t have his complete address but web address is http://www.rccbrass.com and phone number is (806) 329-3130. Hope all this helps, might save you some time down the road, and yes it was a chore but very satisfying indeed. Makes me giggle every time the little girl barks.
Mike
U.S. Army combat vet, 32 years CCFD Lt. (retired), NRA Benefactor member, Marlin Firearms Collector Asso., Cody Firearms Museum member - 89213093, WACA member - 11928, Griffin Gun Club board member, Hunter, BPCR shooter, Hand loader, Bullet Caster
November 7, 2015
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Thanks, Mike. I have a bullet casting buddy in Amarillo and he’s probably heard of Mr Roberson. If he’s turning the brass they’ll probably be a bit expensive. My taste for the unusual stops this side of handmade brass unless I can form them myself. I don’t own a machinist’s lathe and I’m probably too old to learn to run one, let alone a CAD/CAM machine.
I understand about making a little rifle bark. I relined a pretty rough 1892 chambered in 32WCF awhile back, fitted her with a tang sight and a 17M front sight and the result was a very unlikely-looking target rifle. Somewhere along the way her barrel was shortened an inch but she’s a fun little shooter once you learn how to size brass without crushing them. Something about a little 100gr bullet, a few grains of pistol powder and a small pistol primer makes me a happy old tightwad! The bullets are a little small for my clumsy fingers and I ruin a case every time I load a box but she’s a sweet little shooter and she makes me smile!
Mike
Lt. Mike said
Chuck,The last time I talked to Mr. Roberson he told me that a disgruntled (fired?) employee had wiped out most of the control data base from his CNC machines and that they were in the process of doing a rebuild. I’m not a machinist by any sense of the word but I would think this sort of damage would be catastrophic to a small business. I have no idea what it would take in time and money to recover from this. He seemed to be a really nice guy to deal with, to me anyway. Very helpful with cartridge dimensions, head stamp, etc.
Mike
That may explain it but I still don’t know why he wasn’t up front with me or the person who was supposed to get back with me didn’t? Really nice guy on the phone.
Without question, for me, it would be the, “buck or ball” cartridge for my Standard Arms Camp .50 slide action repeater. I’ve yet to see an actual cartridge for this piece. It was thought to be a variation of the .50-70 cartridge (at least that’s what you read in the reference books). Well, I’ve tried a .50-70 shot cartridge and he rim won’t clear the ejection port. However, I have a .50-95 shot cartridge and that will chamber (as well as clear the ejection port) . I also found a .50-110 cartridge will chamber (and clear the ejection port)! I’ve even suggested perhaps the question is not, what .50 caliber cartridge is this piece chambered for, but rather what .50 caliber cartridge is it not chambered for?
Next in line would be my Bullards chambered in .32-40 Bullard (sometimes referred to as the .32 Special in the old Bullard catalogs) and .38-45 Bullard.
This is a fun topic 
Once I learned to slug the bore before even messing with loads everything got alot easier. I’m still having trouble getting two Colt New Service revolvers to shoot well in 44-40. I’m beginning to think that’s why Colt New Service revolvers in 44-40 are in such good condition…they don’t shoot! The cylinder mouths are real small and the bores are real big. Gave up in disgust in 2017, then had shoulder surgery and never got back to them.
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