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Well I got all of the components to start loading. After preparing the cases I tried to load one into the chamber. No go. It appears the bottom of the case just above the rim for about a 1/2″ does not get sized enough for my chamber. I can see the marring on the case. I have a brand new RCBS cowboy die set and I push the case in as far as it can go. The measurements of the case are withing the specs that I have for sizing the case. I have not tried to clean the chamber more than the usual cleaning nor does it looked corroded or rusted. The cases were trimmed to length and I reduced the rim diameter and thickness on one just to make sure these were not the problem. If these were straight wall cases I would make a bushing and push the brass into it.
The cartridge conversion manual show the head diameter should be .504″ and mine measure .503″. There is no data for the diameter at about 1/2″ down but mine are about .485″. Any suggestions??
Chuck,
I have some original 40/65 ammo and reloads made in a Winchester 1894 tool. Both measure .485″ at the 1/2″ point. Could the problem be right at the head? My loaded in a 1894 tool cases are reformed 45/70 brass measure .498″. T/R
Tom it isn’t the brass. Bertram brass is cut deeper just at the rim. Then about 1/16″ after it goes up to .503″. I’m thinking it’s the chamber. I’m going to soak then scrub this area and see what happens. It that doesn’t help I’m going to have to find a way to squeeze the brass some more.
I spent a lot of time last night cleaning this gun. Especially the chamber area. No luck. This rifle is in such great condition I really didn’t expect it to work but I have eliminated another possibility. I’m going to pull out another 86 and see if I can see something different. I’m going to work on a way to push the cartridge farther into the die and still have a way to pull it back out.
Chuck,
Is the chamber dirty or rusty? Bertram brass is not high quality in my opinion, at least not to what was made originally. I think it boils down to their QA/QC. Seen plenty of guys have issues with the primer cavity depth, flash hole placement, no flash hole present, etc.
Heck even Remington Brand cartridges are having issues. People been buying them lately and they’ll have split necks out of the box. Something going wrong with the annealing process.
TR has a good point. If you don’t have a 1894 Tool in 40-65, you might want to buy one and stick your cartridges in the die and use it as a make shift Go – NoGo Gauge.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
It isn’t the brass. It is the die. I put a shim between the case and the shell holder to remove any slop. This caused the die to come further down on the brass and it worked some. I then took off some metal on the top of the shell holder and now the bolt will close but still a little tight. I will remove more metal on the top of the shell holder until I get the cases to come out easier. Going in is not a problem now.
I tried to polish the chamber but I doubt I did any good. On closer inspection there is some rust color. Any ideas how to polish the chamber. I put a mop with polishing compound in the chamber then slid the cleaning rod into the bore and screwed the 2 pieces together. Then polished away.
Who’s die are you using?
I think you know better, but will state it anyway. Don’t do it with a drill and I recommend only doing it by hand.
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick said
Who’s die are you using?I think you know better, but will state it anyway. Don’t do it with a drill and I recommend only doing it by hand.
Maverick
I have a brand new set of RCBS Cowboy dies. All of the cases chamber now but are hard to extract. I have a few more ideas and will keep everyone updated. I left it soaking overnight with a lot of Kroil, again.
Brady, I know what you are saying. I’m using aluminum polish with little to no grit.
November 7, 2015
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Thanks for allowing us to tag along on this project, Chuck. I’m a big fan of RCBS Cowboy dies but I’d take a hard look at the sizing die before working the chamber of your rifle further. In my experience the standard RCBS dies resize the cases too much but the Cowboy dies produce a slightly less re-sized case. I’ve been told I’m wrong about that and they may be right as I only have standard and RCBS dies for two cartridges. Have you had a chance to dig out that other 1886? I’m not a fan of chamber casts, not sure if one would be conclusive in this case. Maybe a bore camera inspection of the chamber? I’m just thinking a careful assessment is it order before you try to “fix” something that can’t be reversed. I’ve had to polish a bit of rust out of two (modern) shotgun chambers and it took considerable polishing. A bore camera may tell you what you’re up against. Some RCBS dies are available a la carte, it may be worth a call to RCBS to see if they have had any QC issues with that die. May not get a straight answer but I destroyed a perfectly good 120 year old shotgun a few weeks ago and I’m a little gun-shy, so to speak.
Mike
I did look at my other 86 in 45-90. It is also a plain pistol grip. The chambers look the same with the naked eye and the rim of the brass looks to be in the same position. The problem is that the sizing die will not reduce the diameter enough for my bore. I got all of the cases to go in but when I tried some more to get them to extract easily I broke the shell holder. I made the top so thin it finally broke. My machinist friend and I talked about making a bushing to force the cases into. He even offered to trim some off the bottom of the die so the cases can go in further. This die is my only Cowboy die set. You’re theory seems to be correct for my case. #14 shell holders are not easy to find. I was just on the phone with RCBS ordering some 32 ACP die parts, which they are sending me free of charge, and he said the #14 shell holder is out of stock. I also looked at my other 45 cal dies to see if the base area diameter is smaller. I did not look at the 45-75 die sets though.
I might load 1 round and shoot it on Tuesday. I am worried about sticking the case. A long dowel and a hammer might be in order.
November 7, 2015
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Sorry Chuck, was thinking I had a 14 RCBS but it was a 16. No idea why I have that one. Then realized it was same as 45-70, all I have is one Lee #8. It’s a bit janky (OK, patina’d!) but you’re welcome to it if one doesn’t turn up.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Sorry Chuck, was thinking I had a 14 RCBS but it was a 16. No idea why I have that one. Then realized it was same as 45-70, all I have is one Lee #8. It’s a bit janky (OK, patina’d!) but you’re welcome to it if one doesn’t turn up.
Mike
Thanks Mike I actually have 3 #14’s. One in each box for the 45-70, 45-90 and the 40-65. The one I want is for experimentation. You don’t happen to collect Lugers, do you? Lugers use a #16.
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
Thanks Mike I actually have 3 #14’s. One in each box for the 45-70, 45-90 and the 40-65. The one I want is for experimentation. You don’t happen to collect Lugers, do you? Lugers use a #16.
No Lugers in my inventory, had a Browning HP but it’s long gone. There was a time long ago that my duty gun and later social equipment was chambered in 9mm, I quite likely loaded my first round with that #16 shell holder nearly 40 years ago. Later rounds were loaded on a Dillon so that shell holder hasn’t been used in over 30 years.
Thanks for helping me figure out why I have that shell holder, Chuck.
Mike
I’d be curious how well your rifle chambers factory ammo. I have some vintage rounds laying around and also many boxes of a special run of PMC .40-65 ammo. I’d be trying all of these in the chamber. I do a lot of loading for this cartridge. I’ve owned rifles in this chambering in Winchester M1886, Marlin M1881, Marlin M1895, Colt Express rifle and a large frame Bullard. It has different names – in the Marlin Model 1881 it’s the .40-60, in the Marlin M1895 and the Winchester M1886 it’s the .40-65, in the Colt Express rifle it’s the .40-60-260 and in the Bullard it’s the .40-60, .40-70 or .40-75 (marked Cal. .40 on the rifle). I’m not saying all these cartridges and bore sizes are identical – there are subtle differences. However, I can use my same handloads in all of these rifles without any chambering issues. Also I haven’t had a problem in any of the rifles I’ve tried the PMC special run ammo in.
On Tuesday I fire formed 2 cases. They load and eject now. Loading is better than ejecting though. I will fire form the other 18 cases next Tuesday if I can. I have my eye on a modern box of ammo. I don’t have an antique 40-65 to try.
Also I scored an 8 lb. container of powder for my 308. Haven’t seen powder for awhile. Any place that has powder has stuff that they can’t sell.
November 7, 2015
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Glad you found some powder, Chuck. I think this too, shall pass. In my case it doesn’t much matter, the executor of my estate may be able to alleviate someone’s powder issues someday. I’m just hoping I live long enough that they can haul it all in one trip. 😉
Mike
My wife knows to call a local auction house. They will come to our house and inventory our collection and haul it off. The list will show the estimated value of each item. There are no additional charges for doing this. She knows she can negotiate the sellers premium and to not sign a contract with extra charges attached. Additional charges should already be covered in the sellers premium. Don’t deal with houses that have a long list of extra fees.
I now have 19 fire formed cases. They are still a little tight so my shooting partner is going to make a bushing to squeeze them a little more in the tight area. The last one will not chamber so I’m waiting on the bushing. I used 10 grs. of 5744 for a whopping 600 to 750 fps.
My friend made me a bushing so I could force the cartridges into it. I used a hammer to drive them in and then a rod and the hammer to drive them out. They chamber and eject much better now. I can now try to figure out a load. I shot a couple last week before I had the bushing with 18 grains of 5744 for about 1100 fps.
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