Avatar

Please consider registering
guest

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters




sp_Feed Topic RSS sp_Print sp_TopicIcon
Deer Hunting with the .44 WCF
May 26, 2015
7:20 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 135
Member Since:
March 19, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Any of you guys shot any whitetails with the .44/40 factory load? I recently picked up a 1913 model 1892 sporting rifle in .44WCF and would like to try it out for woods hunting. The paper ballistics seem pretty anemic but I have read a few accounts of good results on deer at woods ranges. Several instances of complete penetration on broadside hits with the 200 flat nose factory load. Anyone tried theirs out on deer close up?

May 27, 2015
4:45 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1369
Member Since:
December 31, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

My first and second deer were taken with a 24" M1892 in 44-40. The first was on it's way down when I shot the other that was with it. Both clean kills. I was using 200 gr. lead slugs with a too hot load of 2400. Real hard on the rifle, but I know better now. I use H110 rather sparingly now as not to ruin a nice $4,000 M1892. As for accuracy, the H110 is super accurate as is the 2400, but I no longer deer hunt, so when I do shoot one of my 4 M1892's I do it with very low power ammo. Pistol power only. Very good 100 yard deer cartridge.  Big Larry

May 27, 2015
7:09 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 22
Member Since:
June 11, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I've taken two nice Whitetail does with the 44 W.C.F. The last one I took was with an original Winchester Model 1873 and a handload that put a soft cast 200 grain bullet out the barrel at 1,300 fps, depending upon the actual temperature. This velocity is similar to the original black powder loads used back in the day. I have not chronographed factory loads, so I cannot compare with them. I shot the doe broadside at about 40 yards. The bullet passed right through the deer and it ran about 6 seconds, then keeled over. Here is a photo ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/73-with-deer_zps04e03c0a.jpgImage Enlarger

The wound in the photo above is the exit wound.

I also shot a nice, 200 pound Whitetail doe a few years earlier using an original Winchester Model 53, but the load was a bit closer to the original H.V. factory loads, though not quite. If I recall correctly, the 200 grain soft cast bullet left the barrel at around 1,450 fps. The doe was facing me and just as I pulled the trigger it wheeled sideways to flee, moving its body out of the line of fire, but putting its foreleg and rear leg in the line instead. The bullet went through the upper bone in the foreleg and the femur in the back leg, shattering both. Of course, this necessitated a follow up shot which went in the front of the head, through the brain, down the neck breaking a few vertebrae, completely through the vitals and lodging in the gut. I did not measure total penetration, but would estimate it as around 25". Here is a photo of that doe after it was gutted ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/3855Win/Doe-on-hood.jpgImage Enlarger

May 28, 2015
12:22 am
Avatar
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 23
Member Since:
May 1, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

44 WCF factory loads are designed to be safe for use in an 1873. As we all know, the 1892 will take a much more powerful load. I use 10 grains of Unique as a maximum load in my 92, and 8 grains of the same powder in my 73 and my revolvers, using a 200 grain bullet in each.

May 28, 2015
1:41 am
Avatar
South Texas
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 862
Member Since:
March 20, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I havent shot anything with a 44 WCF but have killed several pigs and a turkey with my 1892 rifle in 38 WCF with great success.  Some of them old pigs are tougher than deer, at least the deer we have in our part of the country.  

I used 18.3grns of IMR 4227 with 180 grn lead bullets.  I dont know how fast its moving but I once shot some of these loads in an 1873 and it made me a little nervous.  The maximum loads are 26 grns IMR 4227 with a 180 grn jacketed bullet. The suggested load with 180 grn jacketed bullet is 20 grns having a velocity of 1650 ft/second. 

I didnt mark it but here is a target that Im pretty sure was shot at 100 yards.

IMG_1471.JPGImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

May 28, 2015
7:31 pm
Avatar
Ontario Canada
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 681
Member Since:
April 23, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have shot many boxes of factory Win 44 at target in 92's and 73's and they are accurate but extremely weak. I suspect they are downloaded to the point of being safe in even weak handguns to avoid modern Liability concerns. I know they also have a rainbow trajectory that wouldnt be an issue with 50 -75 yd shooting , but if I was hunting with a 92 I would handload something abit stronger

 

Phil

Phils-Schuetzen-compressed.jpg 

May 28, 2015
9:15 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 22
Member Since:
June 11, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I just checked a Winchester catalogue and it says the current factory 44-40 offering is a 200 grain bullet at 1,190 fps. This is significantly weaker than the original black powder rounds. The lawyers have almost neutered this cartridge. I find 1,300 fps works just fine on deer but I'd be a bit nervous about 1,190 fps.

May 30, 2015
3:49 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 730
Member Since:
December 27, 2007
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

Five Blacktails that I can remember without going to my notes have been taken with a .38 WCF 1873 with factory loads (before I began reloading for it.)  All but one were neck shots.  The one chest-shot buck was nearly broadside, moving toward high gear, out about 50 yards distant.  He fell less than 20 yards after the shot.  Be close.  Pick your spot well.  Hit your spot.  Take good care of the meat!

That was back in the 70's.  My Great-grandfather's rifle.  Things were different back then--farther apart.  Minutes to hunting and shooting.  That factory load is also good for pheasant and ducks on the wing.--Good that things were farther apart; (shooting rifles at flying gamebirds--not the smartest method.)

May 30, 2015
10:13 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 22
Member Since:
June 11, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

FromTheWoods said

Five Blacktails that I can remember without going to my notes have been taken with a .38 WCF 1873 with factory loads

There were High Velocity factory loads and then the normal factory loads. Do you recall what yours were?

May 31, 2015
7:22 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 730
Member Since:
December 27, 2007
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online

They were the regular/weaker loads.  No HVs out of Great-grandpa's '73.  Winchester Western and Remington .38-40's I believe.  If you want to know for certain, I can descend into the sacred realm of my basement reloading room and check the cases--always a pleasure to enter that door!

My youngest son killed his first two deer (mule deer) with the '73 and reloads.  Oregon Trail Laser-Cast bullets.  These were the first bullets we tried reloading.  They shot so straight, we stopped before experimenting with other slugs.  It might be better to use an expanding/softer slug for hunting, but the two bucks he shot didn't need more expansion.  Range on both was under 50 yards.  Shoulder shot buck dropped where it stood.  Second buck behind the shoulder went about 40 yards.  We are careful to keep pressures down for the '73.  No chronograph--manual data lists our velocity below 1000fps.  If we were shooting an 1892, we would push the bullet faster.  

May 31, 2015
11:58 pm
Avatar
Ontario Canada
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 681
Member Since:
April 23, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I dont recall chronying any of the 44 Win factory loads , but in my 24" 73 and 92 rifles, I would suspect the recent 44-40 large Win white box with styrofoam to be below that quoted 1190 (also with a Rem 14 1/2 and Whitney -Kennedy of same length)

Phil

Phils-Schuetzen-compressed.jpg 

June 1, 2015
2:17 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 135
Member Since:
March 19, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have a couple of old boxes of Dominion brand 44 wcf and both are marked "For Winchester and Marlin rifles/ Do not use in handguns. I suspect it is loaded a little hotter than the new stuff but don't own a chrono.

June 1, 2015
5:55 pm
Avatar
Ontario Canada
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 681
Member Since:
April 23, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yes they are much hotter, and not bad ammo if the brass doesnt crack on the first shot (cracked strike low ) (even good looking Dominion  cases not suitable for reloading ). They usually have ballistics and trajectory listed on the back of the box or on the inner flap

Phil

Phils-Schuetzen-compressed.jpg 

June 1, 2015
9:10 pm
Avatar
Ontario Canada
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 681
Member Since:
April 23, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I have old Dominion boxes , but could only locate a 20 box of 44-40 200 gr SP from the 60's when they were starting to download them (they also came in 50 packs)

The top flap reads "For use in Rifles"  (doesnt mention do not use in hand guns, but I wouldnt in your BP frame Colt Peacemaker )

 Back of the box Ballistics reads MV 1310 fps. ,  ME 760 fp.   Sight in @100 yd = apprx 3 " high @ 50 yd ,and 4 1/2 " low @ 125 yd

  ( Mike Webb ...What do your Dominion Ballistics read ? )

Unfortunately the weaker factory Win loads will not give you this wondrous power and super flat trajectory, but as previous posted,  short range and precise bullet placement will still put meat on the table for the skilled hunter

Phil

Phils-Schuetzen-compressed.jpg 

February 5, 2018
5:34 pm
Avatar
SavvyJack
Guests

I apologize for stirring up another old topic but I really enjoy searching for 44-40 topics/information.  I'd love to hear details of ya'lls deer hunt with the old cartridge and add your stories to the 44 Winchester Center Fire Cartridge web site. This past season I took home a small 8 point from 55-65 yards with a Hornady 240gr SWC-HP using Reloder 7. Rife is a scoped Marlin 1894CB chambered for 44-40. The details can be found at  .44winchestercenterfirecartridges.com

A little food for thought...
 

Looking at Lyman's reloading manual #49 page 299, (Double check my numbers) Lyman lists several powders and charges for the 44-40. In particular, Lyman lists 2400 powder in use with the Speer 200gr JSHP bullet #4425. Lyman uses a 24" Universal receiver with 1:36" twist for these particular tests. Cases trimmed to 1.295 and an AOL of 1.600. Those measurements (plus some misc measurements) with Starline brass, using QuickLoad...gives a bullet seating depth of .313" as well as the pressures noted.

Lyman Manual....vs...QL (Quickload) Data

grains/powder/velocity/cup/QL psi CIP

Group I Rifles (weak actions)(Lyman lists ten rifles).....Thats nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40 
16gr/2400/1,183fps/11,900/15,000 (fps=Current Factory VelocitiesNormal Loads

Group II Rifles (strong actions)(Lyman lists nine rifles).....Thats nineteen different firearms total chambered for the 44-40 
18gr/2400/1,380fps/14,500/19,000 (fps=Original Historical Velocities+P Loads due to higher than max pressures
20gr/2400/1,638fps/19,000/25,753 (fps=1903 (1910) Factory "High Velocity" Replication+P+ Loads due to excessive high pressure

Lyman also lists Unique and IMR4227 powders for Group II Rifles

Personally I will not shoot anything in my Marlin with CIP estimated pressures over 26,000psi CIP, we all have our limitations right?. My goal was to replicate the 1903, more yet...the 1910 "High Velocity" ballistics....not to try and make the 44-40 into a 44 magnum as so I have been accused. I consider these HV loads as 44-40 "+P+" loads for those that like to use the "+P" status.

Reputable writers have been using and publishing the +P type loads that replicate original 1,300fps velocities ( but higher than black powder pressures) in magazines and online articles for years.

For all the nay sayers, dudes, weekend range worriers and city slickers.....the loads are right there in the reloading manual!!

Not in Lymans #49 but is in #47 is the 240gr lead bullet information and Reloder 7 that produce 1,200fps at "Group I" rifle category pressures. The same info is/was listed on Lee's 44-40 reloading 3-die-set pamphlet.

Although the modern 1,300 fps velocities replicate original velocities using both black powder and early smokeless powder, the modern pressures generated are above SAAMI/CIP max pressures. I call modern 1,300fps velocities +P loads because of the higher than standard pressures of the earlier black powder and smokeless powder ballistics. The 1,400fps-1,600fps step in velocities I call +P+ loads.


CIP vs SAAMI
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_arms_ammunition_pressure_testing

Thank You!

February 6, 2018
12:22 am
Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2111
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It may be useful to note that the 1873 is on Lyman's Group 1 list and the 1892 is in Group 2. Since I own both 1873's and 1892's I'll load for the 1873. 8 grains of Unique (Group 1) should do anything the 44WCF (and 38WCF) is meant to do. I won't risk a brain fart so I see no need for "Group 2" loads.

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
February 11, 2018
4:50 pm
Avatar
North Carolina
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 13
Member Since:
February 11, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

One of my favorite posts by John Kort

44-40 High Velocity Replication Loads of yesteryear 

Beginning back in 1903, and for about the next 40 years, higher velocity .44-40 cartridges were offered for both the '94 Marlin and '92 Winchester. Catalog velocity was almost 1,600 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. jacketed bullet. Pressure was reported to be around 22,000 p.s.i. and therefore were not safe to be used in the '73 Winchester. 

Lately, I have been working with my '94 Marlin Cowboy Ltd. (24") replicating those vintage factory offerings. As I recall. 44-40 Willy had done some of this in the past.

The jacketed bullets I have used have been 1.)R-P 200 gr. .427", 2.)Winchester 200 gr. .426" 3.) Speer 200 gr. .429"
The groove diameter in my rifle is .428" and all of the bullets shot well even though both the R-P and Winchester were smaller than the groove diamater. Surprisingly, the smallest group was fired with the Winchester bullet that was .002" under groove diameter. 

Using R-P cases, here are the loads I have tried:
xx / 2400 / 1,670 f.p.s.
xx / 4759 / 1,619 f.p.s. (Capacity load)
xx / H4227 / 1,610 f.p.s.
xx /XMP5744 / 1,630 f.p.s. (Capacity load)

All of these loads shot groups in the 1 1/2" range @ 50 yards.

The best group to date came with a slightly higher charge of H4227 under the Winchester bullet.
22 / H4227 /1,685 f.p.s. went into less than 1" for 5 shots @ 50 yards....but the powder had to be positioned to the back of the case to get that result/

I'ts been kind of neat stepping back in history and shooting these replication loads of days gone by. 

w30wcf

February 21, 2018
11:52 pm
Avatar
North Carolina
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 13
Member Since:
February 11, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I thought I would mention that Buffalo Bore now manufactures 44-40 ammunition that is within SAAMI max pressure. These loads are more powerful than Winchester's Super-X hunting loads or MagTech's hunting loads BUT remain at safe SAAMI pressures. Caution should always be taken NOT to use any ammo in any old gun, or even shoot a gun that is in poor condition.

I am not a vender, work for or receive any compensation for said information. Just another shooter that loves the old leverguns.

I figure there are a lot of Winchester 92 and 94 owners that would like this information as well as the Henry, 66 and 73 replicas.

February 22, 2018
1:31 am
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 70
Member Since:
October 4, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

This is at topic near and "deer" to my heart. I have killed many deer and antelope with 44 and 38 1892s. Current factory stuff is pretty wimpy. I did kill an antelope with black hills factory 44/40 factory lead. Bullet went in and out of the chest cavity on a broad side shot at 80 yards. It traveled about 100 yards before falling dead.

After that i loaded black powder useing fff swiss. Big difference. Better velocity and hit much harder. Killed 2 antelope and one whitetail with this ammo.  All three were at just over 100 yards and fell within a few yards.

I now shoot handloads using horady xtp jacketed bullets.  Have killed 4 deer and 6 antelope with these loads. They are very effective and accurate.  They are loaded to moderate pressure still generate good velocity without having to worry about hurting a nice old 92.  Pressure is low enough that brass lasts a long long time.

I suspect that dominion brass is seperating due to pressure rather than poor quality.

February 22, 2018
1:55 pm
Avatar
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2449
Member Since:
March 20, 2009
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Oldgrayguns said
This is at topic near and "deer" to my heart. I have killed many deer and antelope with 44 and 38 1892s. Current factory stuff is pretty wimpy. I did kill an antelope with black hills factory 44/40 factory lead. Bullet went in and out of the chest cavity on a broad side shot at 80 yards. It traveled about 100 yards before falling dead.

After that i loaded black powder useing fff swiss. Big difference. Better velocity and hit much harder. Killed 2 antelope and one whitetail with this ammo.  All three were at just over 100 yards and fell within a few yards.

I now shoot handloads using horady xtp jacketed bullets.  Have killed 4 deer and 6 antelope with these loads. They are very effective and accurate.  They are loaded to moderate pressure still generate good velocity without having to worry about hurting a nice old 92.  Pressure is low enough that brass lasts a long long time.

I suspect that dominion brass is seperating due to pressure rather than poor quality.  

Hello OGG,

Black Hills is the wimpy little brother of "factory" ammo.  Their 44 WCF only travels at 800fps muzzle velocity, if I remember correctly, while both Remington and Winchester is in the 1190 fps range.  Obviously a BIG difference!  I would dump the Black Hills and get the other two if you are going to hunt with it.  The point of impact and trajectory will also be quite different as a result of the change in velocity.

Do I have your 1892's in my survey yet???  I would love to add them if not.  https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-model-1892-all-rifle-survey/

Michael

Signature-Pic.jpg

 

Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation

Forum Timezone: UTC 0

Most Users Ever Online: 628

Currently Online: FromTheWoods, tsillik
53 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)


Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 16

Topics: 6541

Posts: 52630


Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 875

Members: 8661

Moderators: 4

Admins: 3


Top Posters:

1873man: 3965

twobit: 2449

TXGunNut: 2111

Maverick: 1442

Big Larry: 1369

JWA: 1236

Wincacher: 1180

clarence: 1079

Brad Dunbar: 1066

Chuck: 948

Navigation