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Here’s a rare one to look at. The factory ledger is blank – so no help there. And even if the ledger verified the chambering, buttplate, barrel, etc., it would be no help with confirming the authenticity of the finishes. It’s a very early one in a big desirable caliber. Thoughts and opinions? No letter would impact the value by how much?
steve004 said
Here’s a rare one to look at. The factory ledger is blank – so no help there. And even if the ledger verified the chambering, buttplate, barrel, etc., it would be no help with confirming the authenticity of the finishes. It’s a very early one in a big desirable caliber. Thoughts and opinions? No letter would impact the value by how much?
Edit: let me also ask, how often do we see the twist rate marked on the barrel?
If you zoom in on the caliber picture, does it look like there was a hole there at one point? It’s on the side down from the stamping
Bill Hanzel said
If you zoom in on the caliber picture, does it look like there was a hole there at one point?
Sure does. The sloppy stamping of “express” doesn’t look factory either. A gun this early would almost certainly have the factory markings on the top flat. I think it’s been rebarreled at least, if not a total rebuild. Finding out there was no description at all in the ledger may have been the inspiration to “get creative.”
I’ve been watching a Colt single action this seller has listed for 2-3 years on GI, s/n 25598. It’s a nice gun but over priced, he hasn’t sold it and hasn’t marked it down. If the Colt is sample of his pricing this single-shot will be on the market a long time. T/R
Bill Hanzel said
If you zoom in on the caliber picture, does it look like there was a hole there at one point? It’s on the side down from the stamping
Wrench marks in that area as well? Also there is a color difference in that area – an area of approximately one square inch – spans at least the top barrel flat and the left barrel flat. “Express” had a color change about in the middle of the letters.
There is no age to the finish, no handling dings and scratches. I wouldn’t touch it.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I know nothing about single-shots, but are the screws suppose to be blue? I don’t see the chatter marks like a 1886 has on screw heads. T/R
Online
steve004 said
Edit: let me also ask, how often do we see the twist rate marked on the barrel?
Winchester in very rare instances marked the twist rate on the barrel, but only when it was something other than what standard rate of twist was for the cartridge in question.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
There are a number of red flags with that rifle that very clearly tell me that it was put together by somebody who did not possess a working knowledge of the Winchester Single Shot rifle.
1. The barrel is a modern reproduction. The address marking is in the wrong location, and it is not the correct type for an early production rifle. The barrel should have a Type-1 address marking on the top flat of the barrel. That barrel has a Type-4 address marking, and is on the left flat which did not occur until late 1907.
2. The caliber stamp is wrong. All factory original 45 Winchester Express rifles were marked “45 EX.” Winchester never spelled out the word “Express”.
3. The trigger is for a single-set, but the rifle is configured for a plain (non-set) trigger (wrong type of hammer). It does not have a functional set trigger.
4. The Swiss butt plate has modern electroplated nickel on it, and it is not the correct style of Swiss butt plate used by Winchester on the early production rifles.
Conclusion… it is a completely modern “put together” rifle including the finish on it. If it is truly being advertised as Factory original, the seller is either horribly ignorant of the facts, or he is an outright cheating liar… you can decide which is the case.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I would venture to say the barrel has at least been reblued, the wood refinished and of course the Swiss butt plate has been polished. The finish on the front (well worn) sight doesn’t come close to the barrel finish. The end of the barrel is shaded in the photo but it looks to me like the muzzle is blued. If one looks at the bottom of the forearm, it has dark oil staining against the receiver which is covered in the new finish. I’ve never seen a dark oil stain that retained the original finish. The caliber stamping is questionable, being a bit too wavy for factory work. Just my .02….
Erin
Bert,
Ya beat me by a couple of seconds on the posts…….
steve004 said
Here’s a rare one to look at. The factory ledger is blank – so no help there. And even if the ledger verified the chambering, buttplate, barrel, etc., it would be no help with confirming the authenticity of the finishes. It’s a very early one in a big desirable caliber. Thoughts and opinions? No letter would impact the value by how much?
Not the least bit rare… it is not a factory original rifle. The value is way less than what the seller is asking. If you wanted a “shooter” grade rifle in an old obsolete cartridge, it might be worth about $2,500.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert, I have never owned a single-shot. I find your comments appreciated and educational. T/R
TR said
I’ve been watching a Colt single action this seller has listed for 2-3 years on GI, s/n 25598. It’s a nice gun but over priced, he hasn’t sold it and hasn’t marked it down. If the Colt is sample of his pricing this single-shot will be on the market a long time. T/R
Jerks like this are also plentiful on GB–a sale is less important than the bragging rights of getting a sucker price, no matter how long it takes for the right one to come along. When I was closely following 52s on GB several yrs ago, it was common to see guns listed for a yr at the same price, when any half-way reasonably priced 52 sold within a week or two.
TR said
Thanks Bert, I have never owned a single-shot. I find your comments appreciated and educational. T/R
Thanks… I appreciate the positive feedback from our longtime WACA members!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
There are a number of red flags with that rifle that very clearly tell me that it was put together by somebody who did not possess a working knowledge of the Winchester Single Shot rifle.1. The barrel is a modern reproduction. The address marking is in the wrong location, and it is not the correct type for an early production rifle. The barrel should have a Type-1 address marking on the top flat of the barrel. That barrel has a Type-4 address marking, and is on the left flat which did not occur until late 1907.
This in particular is more than a red flag–more like a flashing emergency light. Hard to believe the builder wouldn’t have checked the standard references before putting money into such a flagrant fake.
clarence said
This in particular is more than a red flag–more like a flashing emergency light. Hard to believe the builder wouldn’t have checked the standard references before putting money into such a flagrant fake.
Fortunately for the astute collector, the people who intentionally build fake Winchesters typically “think” that they are smarter than everyone else when in fact, they are not.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
There are a number of red flags with that rifle that very clearly tell me that it was put together by somebody who did not possess a working knowledge of the Winchester Single Shot rifle.1. The barrel is a modern reproduction. The address marking is in the wrong location, and it is not the correct type for an early production rifle. The barrel should have a Type-1 address marking on the top flat of the barrel. That barrel has a Type-4 address marking, and is on the left flat which did not occur until late 1907.
2. The caliber stamp is wrong. All factory original 45 Winchester Express rifles were marked “45 EX.” Winchester never spelled out the word “Express”.
3. The trigger is for a single-set, but the rifle is configured for a plain (non-set) trigger (wrong type of hammer). It does not have a functional set trigger.
4. The Swiss butt plate has modern electroplated nickel on it, and it is not the correct style of Swiss butt plate used by Winchester on the early production rifles.
Conclusion… it is a completely modern “put together” rifle including the finish on it. If it is truly being advertised as Factory original, the seller is either horribly ignorant of the facts, or he is an outright cheating liar… you can decide which is the case.
Bert
Hope they left lots of wiggle room when purchasing it. Like about $10k wiggle room if that.
That early should have italic calibre markings. I’m surprised the fake calibre markings aren’t even in a straight line. Very amateur…
RickC, His Colt is a nice 12k gun listed at 42k, I tried to contact him when it was listed at far less to make an offer and he raised the price. I bought one just as nice made a few months earlier for 9.4k at the next Louisville Show. I don’t think he wants to sell his gun’s or he’s trolling for a fool. T/R
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