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Greetings All; I’m a new guy here on the forum and am soliciting some help…
My dad passed away some years ago and willed my brother his Win 94. My brother recently decided that it should be in my custody; I always loved the rifle and am pleased to have it in my possession. I had it examined by a gunsmith and had a little repair work done along with a thorough cleaning and am ready to get it up and shooting. It is rather old, 1905 vintage in .25-35 WCF caliber. I am hoping that some members here might be able to help with a couple questions:
1. I would like to get a copy of the owner’s manual. I was referred here by the tech support guy at WRA who indicated that the modern-production Win 94 (and owner’s manual) are entirely different than my vintage rifle. Could anyone provide me with a copy of the manual applicable for my 120 year-old rifle, either a digital scan or photocopy (will pay any costs)?
2. .25-35 WCF ammo is hard to come by. The cartridge is derived from the .30-30 WCF which is easier to find. I’ve done a bit of reloading in my time, but never tried necking down brass from one caliber to another. If anyone has done any of that, can you offer some insight or guidance in the process?
3. Does anyone have any favorite loads for the .25-35 WCF? NONE of my reloading manuals even address the cartridge (or even the European counterpart 6.5x52R). I have found some loading data on-line, but thought that the best loads would be those used by Win 94 shooters!
4. For insurance purposes, can anyone suggest a value range for the rifle?
Thanks for any help you can offer!
Jeff “Mongo” Cramer
Hello Jeff,
Winchester did not issue “owner’s manuals” for any of the Model 1894 back in those times. The people (owners) of those times did not need a “manual” to keep their guns in working order.
Resizing 30-30 to 25-35 is a simple process if you have the proper dies & tools. That stated, it is not that difficult to find 25-35 brass or loaded cartridges… if you are willing to pay for them.
117-gr bullets were what Winchester used for the factory loads, but any bullet in the 60-gr to 120-gr range will work.
Shooter’s Reference Load Data for .25 – 35 Winchester (shootersreference.com)
Clear detailed pictures of your Model 1894 are required before a value estimate can be determined.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I’ve done a fair bit of conversion from 30-30 to 25-35. In my experience, merely necksizing will not get you usable brass, as the base diameter for the 25-35 is a bit smaller and 30-30 will not chamber until the base is squeezed down a bit. I use an intermediate die for that.
If you want to send me some 30-30 brass I would be happy to size it for you, if you pay postage.
I have developed a couple of loads for the 25-35. One was a milder load and the other a hunting load. with the 117gr Hornady bullet, 25gr of H4895 was accurate as was the 28.5gr of W760. In fact, that latter load was used to take a huge Texas boar about a year ago:
There are a lot of powders that would work well, and here is a chart to get you started:
Welcome to the forum. Love the username and profile pic, great movie! Can’t make that one today lol
Mongo said
Greetings All; I’m a new guy here on the forum and am soliciting some help…1. I would like to get a copy of the owner’s manual. I was referred here by the tech support guy at WRA who indicated that the modern-production Win 94 (and owner’s manual) are entirely different than my vintage rifle. Could anyone provide me with a copy of the manual applicable for my 120 year-old rifle, either a digital scan or photocopy (will pay any costs)?
Hi Jeff,
Welcome to the WACA forum!
While Winchester did not provide an “Owner’s Manual” for the earlier Model 94 rifles they did supply “Instructions” in a fold-out brochure from the late-1930s to the 1960s.
Winchester also had a detailed Take-down and assembly manual for the earlier 94s, here is a link for that manual for sale – https://www.ebay.com/itm/156415732452?_skw=winchester+94+takedown&itmmeta=01JCRST474XKNNCXCGJD9V2ZZD&hash=item246b1aaae4:g:R6oAAOSwePNm62nu&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKn6KH8zt1jpYAM05mZbcIwW3%2FQsIGZgyPZUuzmTOzLwSN%2FTKxTlTs1VV3Ew4PZANVXpOQ8ZFCc%2F4sZKPPzkfWZAsAUA1V%2BivI2Xru6SE4Z4l6T%2BOuvrxFU8lk%2FsbHGrqIHejkte3YFM6M2KWUMNcnpHrgHv%2BikgvrsoCbgKVDbBpm6luMZzmdpsqGY4efNJ%2BSKjZwWEJRkAEsV%2B0rao7BmjpjDQfMGieyD7cQrZfQQDCOU92XcFohoSfDgVB6VfauRpt9GUlot8YFqn8APNyF5Vp0RsVtfreoHPJL1wC1ZUUw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR9bD6JnmZA
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
The head diameter of the 25-35 is .422″ and the head diameter for the 30-30 is .421″ so new brass should work. But, once fired brass may have grown to fit the last chamber it was shot in.
If you have to reduce the head diameter drill a .420″ hole in a pieces of aluminum and force the cases into it. There will be some rebound.
Chuck said
The head diameter of the 25-35 is .422″ and the head diameter for the 30-30 is .421″ so new brass should work. But, once fired brass may have grown to fit the last chamber it was shot in.If you have to reduce the head diameter drill a .420″ hole in a pieces of aluminum and force the cases into it. There will be some rebound.
That is probably why I need to use an intermediate die to swage the base – I’m using fired 30-30 brass and it just won’t chamber fully if I only neck size down to 25-35.
Thanks all for the responses and welcome to the forum!
Bert: I have found some Sellier & Bellot 6.5x52R ammo and run a few rounds through the rifle. It was a bit pricey at $1.70/rd, but at least I now have brass to reload without being forced to resort to resizing .30-30 Win. Thanks for the link to the loading data.
John D: Nice shootin’ bringing down that hog with a .25-35! Thanks for your insight and the offer to work some .30-30 brass for me. I have a set of RCBS .25-35WCF full-length dies; will that work for resizing .30-30 brass down to .25-35? I was planning on annealing the brass before resizing. You mention using an intermediate die; can you explain a little more about that? Thanks for the reloading data and recommended loads.
Jeremy P: Thanks. It was my call-sign when I was in the USAF. Big, ugly, and not particularly bright; it fit and it stuck, so I ran with it. Yep, that movie couldn’t be made today; subsequent generations don’t have a sense of humor…
JWA: Thanks for the links to the instructions; I’ll follow up on those. Would a 1957 Win 94 be identical to my 1905-vintage rifle?
Chuck: Thanks for the insight on sizing. I have a set of RCBS .25-35 full-length dies; would those work to resize .30-30 brass, new or once-fired? Otherwise, I could try making your home-grown head-sizing tool. What thickness of aluminum plate would you suggest?
When I did a search for .25-35 WCF reloading dies, I only found full-length dies. I assumed that the rule that reloads for semi-auto rifles need to be full-length sized back to factory specs applies to repeaters like the Win 94. Is that the case?
I’m new to the Win 94, a first-time owner. Can anyone suggest a comprehensive book on the Win 94?
Thanks!
Mongo said
Thanks all for the responses and welcome to the forum!JWA: Thanks for the links to the instructions; I’ll follow up on those. Would a 1957 Win 94 be identical to my 1905-vintage rifle?
They are functionally identical but of course there were some component variations from 1905 to 1957, the most visible being the forend length. The 1957 receiver will be tapped on the left side for a receiver sight and the 1905 will not have those 2 holes.
Otherwise the takedown/disassembly and maintenance is the basically the same.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Mongo said
Thanks all for the responses and welcome to the forum!Chuck: Thanks for the insight on sizing. I have a set of RCBS .25-35 full-length dies; would those work to resize .30-30 brass, new or once-fired? Otherwise, I could try making your home-grown head-sizing tool. What thickness of aluminum plate would you suggest?
When I did a search for .25-35 WCF reloading dies, I only found full-length dies. I assumed that the rule that reloads for semi-auto rifles need to be full-length sized back to factory specs applies to repeaters like the Win 94. Is that the case?
I’m new to the Win 94, a first-time owner. Can anyone suggest a comprehensive book on the Win 94?
Thanks!
Mongo,
Full length sizing dies are what you should be using. My cartridge conversion book says to use 25-35 full length sizing dies to reform the 30-30 to 25-35. Make sure to lube the entire case. Do not use an excessive amount of lube. Just enough to cover the brass. Go slowly, and back off if necessary, then try again. I believe that you shouldn’t need to use my other method. But, I have a plate that is about 3/8″ thick but it doesn’t have to be that thick as long as you force the brass all the way to the rim.
People that use just a neck size die, after the initial sizing, may end up with problems, especially if shooting hot loads.
Mongo said
John D: Nice shootin’ bringing down that hog with a .25-35! Thanks for your insight and the offer to work some .30-30 brass for me. I have a set of RCBS .25-35WCF full-length dies; will that work for resizing .30-30 brass down to .25-35? I was planning on annealing the brass before resizing. You mention using an intermediate die; can you explain a little more about that? Thanks for the reloading data and recommended loads.
It has been my experience that, when resizing fired 30-30 brass to 25-35 with a RCBS full length sizing die, the 25-35 sizing die doe not go down far enough to adequately swage the base of the 30-30 case. This results in a case that almost, but quite chambers in my 25-35. So, I have an old 30-30 sizing die with about 1/4″ removed from the bottom, that allows me to squeeze the case head to the correct diameter.
Maybe it is my guns, maybe it is the brass I’m using….. dunno. But that is what I have to do to reform 30-30 brass to 25-35.
Online
This might be useful for you. You can download it and print it yourself. https://homesteadparts.com/shop/a-disassembly-manual-for-the-winchester-model-1894-p-6.html?cPath=98
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
If you can’t get the die to go all the way down you may be able to shim the shell holder. Usually there is some free play between the shell holder and the case. If this isn’t enough use my method. I hate to see dies get modified unless you really have to.
I went through this on several different occasions. Once I had my machinist friend make me a bushing to squeeze the head. My dies were squeezing the head to spec but my chamber was tighter than normal. In all the times I had to do this it only takes 1 time. When fired in your chamber the problem goes away.
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