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Winchester Model 1876 rifles vs carbines
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October 31, 2022 - 2:44 pm
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How common is the carbine relative to the rifle?  Madis gives a 1 to 8 ratio, but his data is not trustworthy.

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October 31, 2022 - 3:21 pm
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I looked in Herbert Houze’s 1876 book and came up with the following numbers.  I didn’t count muskets or entries that said receivers only.  I also ignored rifles changed to carbines and carbines changed to rifles to keep it simple.

Total 1876 rifles:  53,367

Total 1876 carbines:  9,623

That looks closer to 1 in 5.5 ratio of carbines to rifles

I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder

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October 31, 2022 - 4:41 pm
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Bill Hockett said
I looked in Herbert Houze’s 1876 book and came up with the following numbers.  I didn’t count muskets or entries that said receivers only.  I also ignored rifles changed to carbines and carbines changed to rifles to keep it simple.

Total 1876 rifles:  53,367

Total 1876 carbines:  9,623

That looks closer to 1 in 5.5 ratio of carbines to rifles

  

That seems more like what I see!

Anyone have a copy of that book for sale at a reasonable price?

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November 3, 2022 - 3:56 am
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mrcvs said

Bill Hockett said

I looked in Herbert Houze’s 1876 book and came up with the following numbers.  I didn’t count muskets or entries that said receivers only.  I also ignored rifles changed to carbines and carbines changed to rifles to keep it simple.

Total 1876 rifles:  53,367

Total 1876 carbines:  9,623

That looks closer to 1 in 5.5 ratio of carbines to rifles

  

That seems more like what I see!

Anyone have a copy of that book for sale at a reasonable price?

  

Not to question the numbers in the book but in the old days when I was tucking away a few 76’s I found standard grade rifles to be pretty easy to find – carbines were hard to find. Years ago, 76’s were just not that popular and were actually hard to sell. I have a friend who has been collecting the Model 1876 for 50 years and he says carbines are still hard to find and he goes to a lot of gun shows. You always hear guys say carbines were tools, used hard and they did not survive as well – probably a lot of truth to that. If you look at some of the top selling dealers you will see lots of rifles and few carbines – Merz has 30 rifles and 2 carbines – Grove has 2, both rifles – Collectors has almost exclusively rifles. Where you really find rarity in the Model 1876 is in checkering, case hardening and 50 caliber. The attached gun has all these features and I am lucky to have it.

76del.JPGImage Enlarger76delrec.JPGImage Enlarger76delcal.JPGImage Enlarger

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November 3, 2022 - 8:51 pm
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To keep the topic going, here are the 1876 carbine totals by caliber from the Houze book

.45-75  6814

Express  24

.45-60  2497

.40-60  288

I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder

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November 4, 2022 - 5:10 pm
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Since this is a learning experience, let’s critique one of these.  A carbine that inspired this thread.  I won’t be bidding on it, a most esteemed member of this forum critiqued it and I agree with his thought process.

https://live.amoskeagauction.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/94/lot/57583?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F94%3Flotnum%3D315

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November 5, 2022 - 11:11 am
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No thoughts on this one?  It’s still a nice Model 1876 carbine.  You just don’t see them around much.

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November 5, 2022 - 2:38 pm
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The description states it is, “attractive” and I find myself in agreement with that.  It has a good amount of blue – which I found attractive.  However, it does not presently sit as it was shipped originally from the factory.  Phrases in an auction description such as, “appears to have gone back to the factory…” are red flags.  However, I did find it appealing and thought to myself that I would likely never own a M1876 SRC with that much original blue.  

I’m interesting on hearing about what I am probably not seeing.

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November 5, 2022 - 4:14 pm
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steve004 said
…I did find it appealing and thought to myself that I would likely never own a M1876 SRC with that much original blue.  

  

I thought exactly the same thing.  But even as nice as the bluing is, one should see a scratch or ding, or several, on the wood somewhere.  Lack of this suggests the wood has been lightly sanded.

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November 6, 2022 - 11:35 am
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Burt Humphrey said

mrcvs said

Bill Hockett said

I looked in Herbert Houze’s 1876 book and came up with the following numbers.  I didn’t count muskets or entries that said receivers only.  I also ignored rifles changed to carbines and carbines changed to rifles to keep it simple.

Total 1876 rifles:  53,367

Total 1876 carbines:  9,623

That looks closer to 1 in 5.5 ratio of carbines to rifles

  

That seems more like what I see!

Anyone have a copy of that book for sale at a reasonable price?

  

Not to question the numbers in the book but in the old days when I was tucking away a few 76’s I found standard grade rifles to be pretty easy to find – carbines were hard to find. Years ago, 76’s were just not that popular and were actually hard to sell. I have a friend who has been collecting the Model 1876 for 50 years and he says carbines are still hard to find and he goes to a lot of gun shows. You always hear guys say carbines were tools, used hard and they did not survive as well – probably a lot of truth to that. If you look at some of the top selling dealers you will see lots of rifles and few carbines – Merz has 30 rifles and 2 carbines – Grove has 2, both rifles – Collectors has almost exclusively rifles. Where you really find rarity in the Model 1876 is in checkering, case hardening and 50 caliber. The attached gun has all these features and I am lucky to have it.

76del.JPGImage Enlarger76delrec.JPGImage Enlarger76delcal.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Hello burt

I am currently working on a survey for all surviving 1876 50-95  guns. would care to share the serial of yours ? you can pm me if you feel better with that. If anyone else has any feel free to contact me. thank you. 

Jeremy Scott.

WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN 

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November 6, 2022 - 6:25 pm
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Jeremy Scott. said

Burt Humphrey said

mrcvs said

Bill Hockett said

I looked in Herbert Houze’s 1876 book and came up with the following numbers.  I didn’t count muskets or entries that said receivers only.  I also ignored rifles changed to carbines and carbines changed to rifles to keep it simple.

Total 1876 rifles:  53,367

Total 1876 carbines:  9,623

That looks closer to 1 in 5.5 ratio of carbines to rifles

  

That seems more like what I see!

Anyone have a copy of that book for sale at a reasonable price?

  

Not to question the numbers in the book but in the old days when I was tucking away a few 76’s I found standard grade rifles to be pretty easy to find – carbines were hard to find. Years ago, 76’s were just not that popular and were actually hard to sell. I have a friend who has been collecting the Model 1876 for 50 years and he says carbines are still hard to find and he goes to a lot of gun shows. You always hear guys say carbines were tools, used hard and they did not survive as well – probably a lot of truth to that. If you look at some of the top selling dealers you will see lots of rifles and few carbines – Merz has 30 rifles and 2 carbines – Grove has 2, both rifles – Collectors has almost exclusively rifles. Where you really find rarity in the Model 1876 is in checkering, case hardening and 50 caliber. The attached gun has all these features and I am lucky to have it.

76del.JPGImage Enlarger76delrec.JPGImage Enlarger76delcal.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Hello burt

I am currently working on a survey for all surviving 1876 50-95  guns. would care to share the serial of yours ? you can pm me if you feel better with that. If anyone else has any feel free to contact me. thank you. 

  

see attached – please share your data with WACA members

76ltr-1.jpgImage Enlarger

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November 6, 2022 - 7:38 pm
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Bill Hockett said
To keep the topic going, here are the 1876 carbine totals by caliber from the Houze book

.45-75  6814

Express  24

.45-60  2497

.40-60  288

  

So there were 24 M1876 carbines made in .50-95?  I may have vaguely been aware of this but certainly never seen one.  How many have shown up in the survey so far?

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November 6, 2022 - 7:46 pm
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mrcvs said

steve004 said

…I did find it appealing and thought to myself that I would likely never own a M1876 SRC with that much original blue.  

  

I thought exactly the same thing.  But even as nice as the bluing is, one should see a scratch or ding, or several, on the wood somewhere.  Lack of this suggests the wood has been lightly sanded.

  

Light sanding is likely.  The blue wear suggests the carbine was used.  If I could hold it in my hands, the first thing I would look at closely would be the buttplate fit.

As it is not under-sanded at the tangs, I could probably live with it without much problem.

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November 6, 2022 - 8:44 pm
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steve004 said

mrcvs said

steve004 said

…I did find it appealing and thought to myself that I would likely never own a M1876 SRC with that much original blue.  

  

I thought exactly the same thing.  But even as nice as the bluing is, one should see a scratch or ding, or several, on the wood somewhere.  Lack of this suggests the wood has been lightly sanded.

  

Light sanding is likely.  The blue wear suggests the carbine was used.  If I could hold it in my hands, the first thing I would look at closely would be the buttplate fit.

As it is not under-sanded at the tangs, I could probably live with it without much problem.

  

Yes, due to the light sanding, I missed the fact it was sanded, in a moment of glee.  But I’ve become more of a purist and desire ALL original finish and, in the end, I would not be happy with this carbine.

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November 6, 2022 - 10:42 pm
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Burt Humphrey said

Jeremy Scott. said

Burt Humphrey said

mrcvs said

Bill Hockett said

I looked in Herbert Houze’s 1876 book and came up with the following numbers.  I didn’t count muskets or entries that said receivers only.  I also ignored rifles changed to carbines and carbines changed to rifles to keep it simple.

Total 1876 rifles:  53,367

Total 1876 carbines:  9,623

That looks closer to 1 in 5.5 ratio of carbines to rifles

  

That seems more like what I see!

Anyone have a copy of that book for sale at a reasonable price?

  

Not to question the numbers in the book but in the old days when I was tucking away a few 76’s I found standard grade rifles to be pretty easy to find – carbines were hard to find. Years ago, 76’s were just not that popular and were actually hard to sell. I have a friend who has been collecting the Model 1876 for 50 years and he says carbines are still hard to find and he goes to a lot of gun shows. You always hear guys say carbines were tools, used hard and they did not survive as well – probably a lot of truth to that. If you look at some of the top selling dealers you will see lots of rifles and few carbines – Merz has 30 rifles and 2 carbines – Grove has 2, both rifles – Collectors has almost exclusively rifles. Where you really find rarity in the Model 1876 is in checkering, case hardening and 50 caliber. The attached gun has all these features and I am lucky to have it.

76del.JPGImage Enlarger76delrec.JPGImage Enlarger76delcal.JPGImage Enlarger

  

Hello burt

I am currently working on a survey for all surviving 1876 50-95  guns. would care to share the serial of yours ? you can pm me if you feel better with that. If anyone else has any feel free to contact me. thank you. 

  

see attached – please share your data with WACA members

76ltr-1.jpgImage Enlarger

  

thank you burt, I plan to do just that very thing once it is more established as its rather new. thank you 

Jeremy Scott.

WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN 

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November 6, 2022 - 10:45 pm
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steve004 said

Bill Hockett said

To keep the topic going, here are the 1876 carbine totals by caliber from the Houze book

.45-75  6814

Express  24

.45-60  2497

.40-60  288

  

So there were 24 M1876 carbines made in .50-95?  I may have vaguely been aware of this but certainly never seen one.  How many have shown up in the survey so far?

  

not one in the survey thus far but its a rather new venture and still in the very early stages. I expect some will surface. I plan to share all info gathered with waca members once the survey is more established. thank you.  

Jeremy Scott.

WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN 

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November 7, 2022 - 2:20 am
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In the Fall 1988 edition of the Collector, there is some great information/data regarding the first 1000 Model 1976’s – of the first 1000, 900 were rifles and all were 45-75. According to the Madis book, the .50 caliber was not available until 1879. I have found the old Collector magazines to be a valuable source when you are looking for information – you have to be a member and be logged in the look at them.

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