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This is exciting but we now can infer that Winchester firearms and other items shipped from warehouse September 23, 1882, to order number 35145 went to Wm. R. Burkhard, dealer in guns, rifles, pistols and sporting goods in St Paul, Minnesota. I have an Express rifle that was shipped to order 35145 and several months later “Returned by Burkhard.”
So if you have documentation from the warehouse ledgers that shows a rifle shipped to that order number you now know where it went.
Bert H, I would think it would be possible to do a reverse shipping look at other rifles returned by Burkhard by looking at the original shipping order numbers from Winchester. In other words, if we know a rifle was returned by Burkhard, then we can conclude the the Winchester shipping ledger number prior to that was to Burkhard. Does that make sense?
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
Bill Hockett said
Bert H, I would think it would be possible to do a reverse shipping look at other rifles returned by Burkhard by looking at the original shipping order numbers from Winchester. In other words, if we know a rifle was returned by Burkhard, then we can conclude the the Winchester shipping ledger number prior to that was to Burkhard. Does that make sense?
Bill,
No, it does not make sense. The only conclusion that can be made, is that any other Winchester firearms shipped on the same date & order number (as recorded in the ledgers) , was shipped to the same retailer (Wm Burkhard in this case). If the order number is different, or the shipping date is significantly different, that indicates it went to someone else. I have used the Order numbers in the Model 1885 Single Shot records to identify the rifles that were shipped to John M. Browning. When I encounter a Browning marked Winchester Single Shot, I record the ledger information for it, and then search the ledger records for several hundred serial numbers on both sides of it looking for other rifles with the same order number and ship date. I then note those serial numbers as “probable” Browning shipped patent payment rifles. It is a slow and tedious process, but it has enabled me to identify a fair number of the Model 1885 rifles shipped to the Browning brothers. I learned how to do this from a fellow (Dave Packard) who was doing this for all of the various Winchester models that were shipped to Browning. He had more than (400) Browning Brothers marked Winchesters in his collection, and worked as a volunteer at the Browning Museum. I believe that his entire collection was donated to the Browning museum.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, I’m not ‘splaining my thought process very well. What I meant to say was for example, we know a particular rifle was returned by Burkard. Then we look at the original shipping order number (September 23, 1882 order number 35145) for that rifle then we can conclude that any other guns that show that same order number also went to Burkhard.
Winchester rarely shipped orders for one gun. I am speculating a bit but it seems if we know of any other rifles that went to order number 35145 on September 23, 1882 (at the time of this shipment it would have possibly included 1866, 1873, 1876, Hotchkiss) then we can conclude they also were shipped to Burkhard.
Does that make sense?
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
Bill Hockett said
Bert, I’m not ‘splaining my thought process very well. What I meant to say was for example, we know a particular rifle was returned by Burkard. Then we look at the original shipping order number (September 23, 1882 order number 35145) for that rifle then we can conclude that any other guns that show that same order number also went to Burkhard.Winchester rarely shipped orders for one gun. I am speculating a bit but it seems if we know of any other rifles that went to order number 35145 on September 23, 1882 (at the time of this shipment it would have possibly included 1866, 1873, 1876, Hotchkiss) then we can conclude they also were shipped to Burkhard.
Does that make sense?
Yes, and it it mirrors what I explained in my previous response. What you do not have correct is your statement “Winchester rarely shipped orders for one gun.” The truth is that Winchester did ship a very substantial number of “1” gun orders, especially the fancy (deluxe) grade guns, which were almost always a single gun order.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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