I’ve got a pretty nice early, first year/month, Winchester Model 61 .22 with serial number 78 with some extra markings. See pictures below.
“5353” just forward of the serial number on the bottom of the receiver and what looks like a couple numbers punched in the same spot just below the ejection port on the right side of the receiver.
I sent pictures and details to Mike/Two Bit for his survey and asked about the extra markings. He said he’s never seen them before.
Similar markings may have been added to other Winchester’s so that’s why I’m asking here.
Any thoughts? And thanks.
Bill
Bill, subject to being overruled by somebody who knows better, the first thing I notice is the serial numbers appear to have been roll marked before the gun was blued, which I believe Schwing wrote was standard processing for the Model 61. [My library is in storage so I’m relying on what’s left of my memory after 80 Winters.]
Conversely, the extra marks appear to have been applied “through the blue” because of the ghosting that surrounds each number.
The mark on the side of the receiver might be a foreign proof mark although I thought those were usually applied to the barrel.
The “5353” on the bottom of the receiver might be a supplemental control or registration number applied by a government entity, probably of a foreign country that registers guns that come into the country.
The above are SWAGs.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Hi Bill,
Thanks so much for your thoughts and I agree with your comments:
The serial number was applied before the gun was blued which would be the typical process in manufacturing the gun in 1932. See the picture below of the marking on the bottom of the barrel “32”.
And those additional 4 numbers “5353” were applied later over the factory blue finish. Same for the marks on the right side of the receiver.
And what they are for? Still a mystery I guess.
I was hoping someone has seen the same or similar marks on a gun and knew what they were.
So, yep, still a mystery.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Anybody else?
With respect to the mark on the face of the receiver that I said might be a supplemental proof: would it be possible to get a high resolution, in focus closeup of that mark?
There are catalogues of proof marks with which this might be compared if the design were clarified a bit.
One way to start would be an image search of the Web. If that yielded nothing, a study of the scholarly literature on proof marks. The old Gun Digest editions of the Fifties and early Sixties had relevant articles.
I have a feeling that. If it’s a proof mark, the “5353” can be more easily explained once the proofing authority (and country) is discovered.
Edit: ANOTHER THOUGHT. Given the very early serial, perhaps you should inquire of the Cody’s firearms museum, furnishing them these images, to see if anyone there might have a clue. Perhaps the rifle had been retained for some in-plant purpose before it was sold and shipped.
The Model 61 is highly collectible and surely there are WACA members who specialize in it and are likely to have seen something similar, unless it’s a one-off.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
With respect to the mark on the face of the receiver that I said might be a supplement proof: would it be possible to get a high resolution, in focus closeup of that mark?There are catalogues of proof marks with which this might be compared if the design were clarified a bit.
One way to start would be an image search of the Web. If that yielded nothing, a study of the scholarly literature on proof marks. The old Gun Digest editions of the Fifties and early Sixties had relevant articles.
I have a feeling that. If it’s a proof mark, the “5353” can be more easily explained once the proofing authority (and country) is discovered.
“With respect to the mark on the face of the receiver . . . ” I think you mean the one on the right side of the receiver just below the ejection port. I will get a better, up close and in focus shot of that and post it here.
Bill
Yes. That’s the one. Nobody at WRA would put a re-work or in-plant inspection mark in such a visible place.
Nor would a collector or museum do such a thing.
The mark smacks of authoritarian bureaucracy just because of its disfiguring location, to my eye.
Alternative thought: An agency mark with a “5353” inventory control number. What kind of agency would need/use an expensive .22 hammerless repeater in the Depression Years?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Hi Bert. What do you think?
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
Hi Bert. What do you think?
The “5353” was positively stamped on that rifle after it left the Winchester factory. The question is by whom and for what reason… and I do not have an answer.
The mark on the side of the receiver frame below the ejection port is also an unknown, but I am reasonably certain that it is not a foreign proof marking.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Upon seeing the closeup image, I don’t think it’s a proof mark either. It looks more like a stylized set of initials or a logo of some sort. I’ll run a Web image search tomorrow. That is usually a fool’s errand, for me anyway, but who knows — maybe it’s SuperDave Osbourne’s initials in Urdu. Maybe somebody dropped the gun onto a jagged rock…
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
It would be interesting, and rewarding, if such a documented mark exists.
Many years ago, a Winchester collector showed me a simpler mark on a M1892, a .25-20 takedown if I remember correctly.
Supposedly a rifle from the Maytag Ranch in Colorado. I don’t have much recollection of what it looked like tho.
Good luck Bill, and thanks.
Bill
November 7, 2015
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