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Note: I’m creating a new thread here to get this discussion out of another thread where it was not really on topic.
I recently purchased a stripped receiver (s/n 194285) that has a saddle ring. The Cody letter indicates this was a Rifle vice a Carbine and contains no information about any special order items. I asked the Cody folks to double check their records and they confirmed the letter is accurate in its reflection of the entire record. I ordered the ledger information from Cody yesterday and will update this thread once it arrives.
In looking at the saddle ring it came with, it seems to be after market. The mounting hole on the receiver, to me, seem to be from the factory. Any thoughts or insight anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated. Here’s a link to a page with some pictures, I have more if needed.
Gallery Page of All Images (Click on the thumbnails to enlarge the image)
Great job with the pictures!
I agree that the SR & stud appear to be aftermarket. I also see that somebody previously refinished the receiver frame after subjecting it to a buffing wheel. Apparently it happened a long time ago, as the receiver frame has reacquired additional wear and pitting patterns.
As for the tapped hole for the SR, I cannot determine if it is factory original or aftermarket work. However, based on the factory letter, I would lean towards it not being factory work. That stated, my next step would be to determine what the configuration was for the serial numbers on both sides of it in the ledger record.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
If it were my receiver and if I was planning on restoring it. I would, based on the letter, remove the stud and have the hole filled in (welded up). Then forget it ever had a ring on it. As you have a standard 94 Rifle with a Round Barrel in 38-55.
Unless I wanted to turn it into something it never was, and then possibilities are endless.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick said
If it were my receiver and if I was planning on restoring it. I would, based on the letter, remove the stud and have the hole filled in (welded up). Then forget it ever had a ring on it. As you have a standard 94 Rifle with a Round Barrel in 38-55.Unless I wanted to turn it into something it never was, and then possibilities are endless.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Thanks Maverick. I was contemplating that same approach. I also found a plug screw that could be hybrid fix, but probably not ideal.
Maybe I’m off in thinking that because the stud and ring (even though they are clearly not original) tighten to the right mounting position (i.e. the stud is parallel to the bottom of the receiver) that the hole was done by the factory. I also don’t see any evidence inside the receiver of drilling…at least by someone who wasn’t skilled.
I’m partially under the belief that this was a carbine and inaccurately recorded as a rifle. That said, I don’t know how common a 38/55 carbine would be in 1903. Based on the left cartridge guide having the spring loaded plunger, I am confident the 38/55 caliber is accurate.
I’m going to wait until I get copies of the actual ledgers before I make a final decision on what to do.
Well the stud and ring are not originals. So that is one bad sign. I suppose you could measure and compare the position of the stud hole in receiver to a known factory SRC receiver hole. If they don’t match, you’ll know for certain the hole is not factory. If they do match, then it “possibly could be” factory drilled hole, or a good gunsmith but I do find that somewhat doubtful based on the current letter.
I maybe wrong but I believe the 38/55 Carbines were pretty common in the earlier years of production.
Sincerely,
Maverick
P.S. Best of Luck with your Project!
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Also if it’s a factory stud it would need to alighn perfectly paralell with the receiver when installed
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Updating this thread to close it out. I received the copy of the ledger for the 1903 yesterday and based on the adjacent entries I think it’s safe to say the saddle ring was an after market add-on. I’m going to have it filled as suggested.
As a side note, I was really disappointed in what my $50 bought in terms of the Cody ledger information. I was expecting a decent quality copy of the full page. What I got was a blurry photocopy, on thin paper, of the row with my rifle’s information and one proximate entry. There was no column header information included either so deciphering the data was a best guess. I ended up having to take a picture with my phone so I could zoom in and read the writing.
I only share so that anyone else contemplating purchasing the ledger information has the appropriate expectations of what they will get.
November 7, 2015
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Alaska94 said
Updating this thread to close it out. I received the copy of the ledger for the 1903 yesterday and based on the adjacent entries I think it’s safe to say the saddle ring was an after market add-on. I’m going to have it filled as suggested.As a side note, I was really disappointed in what my $50 bought in terms of the Cody ledger information. I was expecting a decent quality copy of the full page. What I got was a blurry photocopy, on thin paper, of the row with my rifle’s information and one proximate entry. There was no column header information included either so deciphering the data was a best guess. I ended up having to take a picture with my phone so I could zoom in and read the writing.
I only share so that anyone else contemplating purchasing the ledger information has the appropriate expectations of what they will get.
The original ledgers are often in poor condition and most inquiries utilize an electronic image of these deteriorated records. Your copy was probably generated from those images. I’ve had a few opportunities to see what the good folks at the CFM records office have to work with and I’m impressed with the accuracy and consistency of the interpretations. I’m sorry you were disappointed but our friends at CFM can’t give you what they don’t have.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Alaska94 said
Updating this thread to close it out. I received the copy of the ledger for the 1903 yesterday and based on the adjacent entries I think it’s safe to say the saddle ring was an after market add-on. I’m going to have it filled as suggested.
As a side note, I was really disappointed in what my $50 bought in terms of the Cody ledger information. I was expecting a decent quality copy of the full page. What I got was a blurry photocopy, on thin paper, of the row with my rifle’s information and one proximate entry. There was no column header information included either so deciphering the data was a best guess. I ended up having to take a picture with my phone so I could zoom in and read the writing.
I only share so that anyone else contemplating purchasing the ledger information has the appropriate expectations of what they will get.
The original ledgers are often in poor condition and most inquiries utilize an electronic image of these deteriorated records. Your copy was probably generated from those images. I’ve had a few opportunities to see what the good folks at the CFM records office have to work with and I’m impressed with the accuracy and consistency of the interpretations. I’m sorry you were disappointed but our friends at CFM can’t give you what they don’t have.
Mike
I would like to clarify Mike’s reply above.
The original factory warehouse ledger record books are actually in decent to very good condition. Instead, it is the original Winchester microfilm records (from the early 1970s) that are deteriorating and sometimes difficult to read. The old microfilm records were digitized back in 2006 (or 2007) before they could further deteriorate, and those are the files that the CFM use to look up a serial number. If the records are unclear or unreadable, Jessica will make a trip to the vault to look at the original ledger book record. In more recent times, the at least some of the warehouse ledger records have been re-digitized, but I do not know to what extent that effort has been completed. The newly re-digitized records are a vast improvement over the old microfilm records as they are clear and in full color versus black & white.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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