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I saw this rifle come up on GB this AM. It looks pretty nice, but I do see a couple of flags. Opinions are appreciated. A learn only as I am not interested in buying, nor do I know the seller. Peter
It’s a nice looking rifle. I’d be concerned about originality based on at least 2 things. There appears to be bluing over scratches on the both of the side plates. Also, there is absolutely no bluing wear at the edge of the muzzle, which is nearly impossible to avoid. There might be some other “tells”, but these two items would give me pause before I would pay collector level prices.
Is that the correct hammer? I thought winchesters of that time period had widows peak hammers, or is that exclusive to the model 1894?
Other than that question, my completely ignorant and beginner level opinion is that it looks like a very nice rifle.
it looks good to me. I see some forging marks on the sides of the receiver, age to the finish, edges are sharp and color look right. The only thing that I saw that made me wonder is the open grain to the wood. I would have to see it in person to tell for sure.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Looks right from what I can see. Appears to have the right color of blue, forge marks on receiver, right color for case colors. For as much case colors left on the buttplate I wouldnt expect much wear anywhere else–the butt plate tends to be where you loose blue and CC the fastest in addition to the lever. I also have to question the open wood grain and maybe the color of the wood but the photos were taken with poor lighting (flash) so its hard to tell. The flash tends to accentuate an open wood grain in areas I think. To the best of my limited knowledge the early “widow peak” hammer rules dont apply to 1892’s but do apply to 1894’s–those tracking these variations can chime in with more certainty. For that kind of money I would have a hard time buying any gun without a hands-on peek.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
I have a DOM 1893, 1892 with widows peak hammer and also an 1894 DOM, 1892 with the same widows peak. This rifle is an 1896 DOM I think. With the 1894’s, I have notes that say the widows peak started to phase out around serial # 110,000 (1901), and was pretty much gone by serial #200,000 (1903). Peter
Real Good looking 1892. The starting bid may be a little high @ $18500.
Hard to bid at that level especially if not being 100% sure of it’s originality.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Hi guys,
I just was entering this rifle into my survey this morning. I agree with 1892 Takedown that the very limited wear on the butt plate and lever tells you that the rifle has almost no prior use and the balance of the gun should be similarly in high condition. Some how this thing has been standing still for +100 years. The “widows peak” hammer was used exclusively on the 1892 until around SN 50,000 when the rounded style on this rifle begins. The transition starts earlier and widow peak hammers can be found as late as the mid 70,000 range. It would be nice to see the ledger entry/Cody letter for the rifle.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
The Model 1892 with serial no. 54xxx was definitely made in 1896. I have a 38-40 carbine, serial no. 63xyz that was also made in 1896 and has the widow’s peak hammer. I also have a 44-40 rifle, serial no. 8xyz that has the second style hammer without the widow’s peak. The latter example was in pretty poor condition when I acquired it in 1982 and the hammer’s safety notch was worn off to where it wouldn’t hold securely in the safety position so I tend to think this was the original hammer.
As a personal bias regarding the rifle in question, it seems to me that someone asking around $20K should be able to post the correct manufacture date. Also, for that asking price, a Cody letter should be provided. Otherwise, a nice specimen.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Speaking of interesting model 1892’s. Check this one out on gun broker.
August 11, 2015
Offline
I have a couple of 1892’s:
SN 47238 has the rounded hammer knurling
SN 70545 has the widow peak hammer knurling
Regards,
That, Full Nickle 1892 Carbine is interesting,
Guess the shipping Company, added the Sling & Swivels and Oil Finish to the Stocks.
"I Would Have Rather Lived Through The Industrial Revaluation"
"Instead of The Space Age"
From
The Twilight Zone
I see an awful lot of rust for a 98% or 95% or 90% or 100% original piece.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Just my opinion, but when an auction says 100% “original” condition, I think they mean it has all original parts as in the way it came from factory. I do NOT think they mean 100% condition with no rust scratches etc. The key word is “original”, at least that’s how I’ve always read it. Peter
PS: for some reason (the wood), I don’t think the nickel gun is original
hokie said
That, Full Nickle 1892 Carbine is interesting,Guess the shipping Company, added the Sling & Swivels and Oil Finish to the Stocks.
Mark,
Out of curiosity, why would you think that? The Sling & Swivel and oil finish are listed in the warehouse ledger record, which means that Winchester did the work. I suspect that either the shipping date, or the date the swivels were added was incorrectly recorded in the ledger.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
That nickel carbine–the condition of the receiver does not match the rest of the firearm. The receiver has been refinished. Clearly worth nowhere near the asking price of $15,000.
Ya know Bert,
It’s not that I think that, it’s just an example of what can go wrong with something that is in black and white. But I did not see a copy of the Winchester Ledger, maybe you have. I also suspect, it’s an example of what can go wrong because of human error, from back in the day, (or today) when everything was done by hand and a common employee doing the work.
The same example exists with a Winchester Firearm, that a Factory Letter can be generated to account for it’s authenticity of a specific example and it’s not listed on the Winchester Letter. Because of lack of space in the ledgers, the employee having a bad day, the inspector missed some or all the special features of that example. Doesn’t mean, that specific Winchester Firearm didn’t come from the Factory the way it is today, holding it in hand, viewing it and making educated assumptions if it is correct.
The same example exists with a Winchester Firearm that a Factory Letter ‘can not’ be generated to account for it’s authenticity of a specific example. There are many more examples of this, through out the variety of Models in production after 1913, until 1963. These examples are the most intriguing to me, as I have to examine them and make a educated decision as to their authenticity, if they left the Winchester Factory as viewed in hand and what was happening at the Winchester Factory in a specific time frame.
My point being, was Winchester phasing out a specific Model or variant there of, the event of WW1, was it the time frame of the Great Depression, the era right before WW2, or during the War, and after the War, the person that wanted to Special Order their Winchester Firearm during this time frame, or the Winchester Employee that wanted their own Personalized Winchester Firearm of a specific Model and their co-workers made it for them, maybe it was a prototype that escaped the factory through the in-house Winchester Store, doing a parts clean up to produce a Winchester Firearm that could be sold and a profit made? I really don’t think the employee cared what parts they pulled out of the parts bin (an example, as to if the hammer had a widows peak knurling) to assemble that firearm, they just knew they were doing their job, receiving a pay check, making a profit for the company and taking pride in what they were doing. I really think the Winchester Company was in business to produce Quality Firearms at a reasonable price and utilize parts on hand to make a profit. I think a prime example of this is the short barreled rifles and carbines that were produced, sure they could have been Special Ordered, but because of Special Orders of longer than stock length barrels were produced. Winchester was in the business of making a profit, so instead of throwing out barrel stock of various lengths. They produced a firearm out of it, to be sold for a profit, which exceeded the value of scrap price of the material.
So, Bert in ending.
I hope I have quenched your curiosity, as to my Original Post. I just wanted to point out some anomalies that can and probably will affect the decisions of Collecting Winchesters, that were produced back in the day as a working tool of the time frame, to be sold and a profit made for the Winchester Company. As to, weather a Winchester Factory Letter can be generated or not, as to the specifics of what is seen today. Like I have heard so many times on this Form, buy the Gun, not the Story.
But, the question is,
What is the Story?
The Answer, might just be.
I, Suspect this to be the way it was.
From the Twilight Zone, hokie
P.S.
I hope I have stimulated some thought process on Collecting Winchesters.
That everything, isn’t set in stone.
There are always variables, weather they be known or unknown.
"I Would Have Rather Lived Through The Industrial Revaluation"
"Instead of The Space Age"
From
The Twilight Zone
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