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I was wondering if this is available? I was wondering when the more common black powder rounds (.38-56; .40-65; .40-82; & .45-90) started to wane in popularity and if all 4 of these calibers started to really decrease in production at the same time, or if some faded faster than others—and when that might have been for each caliber. I omitted .38-70 and .40-70 as they weren’t all that common. Same with .50 cal 1886 rifles, although maybe they should be included. The .45 -70 and .33 WCF cartridges were not included as .33 WCF wasn’t available until 1902 and it and .45-70 were the most popular calibers at the end of production. My guess, and this is a guess, is that .38-56 dropped off first, .40-65 and .40-82 faded from the scene about the same time, and .45-90 was the last to exit once .45-70 and .33 WCF dominated production.
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I have no idea when things occurred. But I do know that the NEW RCBS dropped all dies that are not popular sellers. The 40-65 was not one of them.
Chuck said
I have no idea when things occurred. But I do know that the NEW RCBS dropped all dies that are not popular sellers. The 40-65 was not one of them.
What do you mean by the new RCBS? Did they change ownership?
I am surprised that .40-65 is even remotely popular these days, although I like it.
Were .38-56, .40-82, and .45-90 dropped? I would think .40-82 is more popular than .40-65, but that doesn’t mean I’m correct.
mrcvs said
Chuck said
I have no idea when things occurred. But I do know that the NEW RCBS dropped all dies that are not popular sellers. The 40-65 was not one of them.
What do you mean by the new RCBS? Did they change ownership?
I am surprised that .40-65 is even remotely popular these days, although I like it.
Maybe there’s a lot of guys like me who use these dies to keep our .40 caliber Bullards, Whitney-Kennedys, Colt Lightning Express and Marlin M1881 rifles running. Don’t forget the .40-65 Marlin M1895’s.
mrcvs said
Chuck said
I have no idea when things occurred. But I do know that the NEW RCBS dropped all dies that are not popular sellers. The 40-65 was not one of them.
What do you mean by the new RCBS? Did they change ownership?
I am surprised that .40-65 is even remotely popular these days, although I like it.
Were .38-56, .40-82, and .45-90 dropped? I would think .40-82 is more popular than .40-65, but that doesn’t mean I’m correct.
RCBS was bought out by Alliant techsystems (ATK) in 2001. Vista Outdoors is a spin off of ATK.
You need to go on their website to see what they carry now. You better be sitting down when you do so.
steve004 said
mrcvs said
Chuck said
I have no idea when things occurred. But I do know that the NEW RCBS dropped all dies that are not popular sellers. The 40-65 was not one of them.
What do you mean by the new RCBS? Did they change ownership?
I am surprised that .40-65 is even remotely popular these days, although I like it.
Maybe there’s a lot of guys like me who use these dies to keep our .40 caliber Bullards, Whitney-Kennedys, Colt Lightning Express and Marlin M1881 rifles running. Don’t forget the .40-65 Marlin M1895’s.
Could be true Steve. I like shooting my 86 in 40-65 too.
I rarely buy reloading dies new. Second hand is cheaper and equal to new if not better.
Lucky for those of us shooting obsolete calibers, Redding (in upstate NY) is still in business, and makes dies that are at least as good, if not better, than what RCBS made. They still sell a wide array of old obsolete caliber dies. I actually prefer Redding dies.
BRP
Blue Ridge Parson said
Lucky for those of us shooting obsolete caliber’s, Redding (in upstate NY) is still in business, and makes dies that are at least as good, if not better, than what RCBS made. They still sell a wide array of old obsolete caliber dies. I actually prefer Redding dies.BRP
I walked into a small local gun store a few months ago and found brand new Redding die sets for 40-82 and 45-90 for $80 each. Couldn’t pass them up so bought both. Since then, I bought a Winchester 40-82 bullet mold from a fellow forum member. I don’t currently reload for these calibers but I’ll be ready to go when I do.
Don
There is some digression here, but back to the original question. See post #1. Any thoughts?
I did not have access to Madis’ book The Winchester Book when I created this thread. Now, a lot of Madis’ work lacks credibility as to generalizations, and sometimes even specifics, but I think the following quote, while maybe not (or maybe) correct as to specific year, provides factual information relative to some date ranges, if not specific years: (pages 305 & 309)
”A large variety of cartridges became available for the 86 over a period of years; these were: 45-70, 45-90, and 40-8 from 1886, with the addition of 40-65, 38-56 and 50-110 Express in 1887, 40-70 and 38-70 in 1894, the 50-100-450 in 1895, and 33 in 1903. Production of barrels in calibers 40-82, 40-70, 40-65, 38-70, 38-56 and 50-100-450 was discontinued in 1910. The 45-70, 45-90, and 50-110 Express were discontinued in 1919, but the 45-70 barrel production was again begin in 1927. From 1920 to 1928 only the 33 caliber was offered in the model 86; however, some barrels chambered for the discontinued cartridges remained on hand and were fitted to guns after the caliber was not publicly offered. In 1928, the 45-70 was again added to the line and was again dropped in 1931.”
I know that the .33 WCF cartridge was offered as early as 1902, so Madis’ statement fails the fact check on this claim alone, so some of the other specific years may be in error, but it clearly demonstrates a trend. Circa or exactly 1910, .38-56, .40-65, and .40-82 production would cease except for using a few left over barrels, then the same for .45-90 circa or precisely 1919.
So, my guess is these four calibers saw the vast majority of production before 1900, maybe 1910 for the .45-90, and so production in any of these calibers after circa 1900 (circa 1910 for the .45-90) was unusual due to increased demand and a decade of diminished sales led to their outright discontinuation.
Feel free to support, refute, or modify.
In my research study of the late production Model 1886s I have thus far documented the following;
January 1900 – December 1909 (serial number range 120796 – 145999)
| Calibers | Quantity | Percentage |
| 33 WCF | 482 | 49.18% |
| 33 WIN. | 1 | 0.10% |
| 38-56 WCF | 37 | 3.78% |
| 38-70 WCF | 12 | 1.22% |
| 40-65 WCF | 20 | 2.04% |
| 40-70 WCF | 1 | 0.10% |
| 40-82 WCF | 31 | 3.16% |
| 45-70 | 258 | 26.33% |
| 45-90 WCF | 73 | 7.45% |
| 50 EX | 46 | 4.69% |
| 50-100-450 | 13 | 1.33% |
| 33 WCF & 45-70 | 2 | 0.20% |
| 38-56 & 45-90 | 1 | 0.10% |
| 45-70 & 50 EX | 1 | 0.10% |
| 45-95 & 38-56 | 1 | 0.10% |
| Total | 979 |
Calibers observed for the years 1910 – 1932 (serial number range 146000 – 159999)
| Calibers | Quantity | Percentage |
| 33 WCF | 711 | 55.46 |
| 38-56 WCF | 9 | 0.70% |
| 40-65 WCF | 5 | 0.39% |
| 40-70 WCF | 3 | 0.23% |
| 40-82 WCF | 4 | 0.31% |
| 45-70 | 468 | 36.51% |
| 45-90 WCF | 49 | 3.82% |
| 50 EX | 29 | 2.26% |
| 50-100-450 | 4 | 0.31% |
| Total | 1,282 |
Please keep in mind that this information was derived from an ongoing research survey, and it should not be construed as “factual” production ratios. Of the 39,204 possible serial numbers, I have documented just 2,261 (5.76%) of them thus far. As more time passes and I add more (new) specimens to the survey, it will undoubtedly become more accurate. For those of you that read this and own a Model 1886 that is in the 120706 – 159999 serial range, I would very much appreciate hearing from you.
Bert – [email protected]
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
I didn’t know you were surveying these. I assume you entered these two when I discussed them in another thread. The .40-65 is what piqued my interest in this subject matter being that it was 1903 production and all the rest I had seen were definitely earlier than 1900. 129487 (.40-65) and 138889 (.33 WCF).
From this same auction are the following as well:
134936 (.33 WCF)
137781 (.45-70 carbine)
Ian,
Yes, I have all of those rifles documented in the survey.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, do you have the manufacturing numbers from 1886 – 1899? Or can you tell me the total number manufactured prior to 2000?
Do you have these in your survey?
33 WCF – 140353
38-56 – 19806
40-82 -108553
Thanks Bert,
Brett
Oldleverman said
Bert, do you have the manufacturing numbers from 1886 – 1899? Or can you tell me the total number manufactured prior to 2000?Do you have these in your survey?
33 WCF – 140353
38-56 – 19806
40-82 -108553
Thanks Bert,
Brett
The only information I have for the years 1886 – 1899 is the total production number… 120,795 Model 1886s. John Madl in his reference book indicates the following caliber production numbers for all Model 1886s that the CFM has records for (s/n 1 – 145999 & 150800 – 156999);
1. 33 WCF = 12,869
2. 38-56 WCF = 19,457
3. 38-70 WCF = 1,167
4. 40-65 WCF = 17,651
5. 40-70 WCF = 862
6. 40-82 WCF = 30,973
7. 45-70 = 36,107
8. 45-90 WCF = 23,197
9. 50 Caliber (all variants) = 5,542
The survey that I am working only covers serial numbers 146000 – 159999.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, thanks for your reply. I had hoped that there was more information for the number of 1886’s that are considered antique, manufactured before 1899. I do find the information you sent very interesting. I did think that there would have been many more 33 WCF rifles manufactured as I believe is the first smokeless powder round. Thanks again.
Brett
Oldleverman said
Bert, thanks for your reply. I had hoped that there was more information for the number of 1886’s that are considered antique, manufactured before 1899. I do find the information you sent very interesting. I did think that there would have been many more 33 WCF rifles manufactured as I believe is the first smokeless powder round. Thanks again.Brett
Currently, the 33 WCF makes up 49.5% of all Model 1886s manufactured after serial number 120795. If that is an accurate survey statistic, the total estimated 33 WCF production would be 19,406.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
What do you estimate the total production numbers and percetage is for the 38-56 and 40-82, both BP rounds? I would think the two rounds would have been popular prior to 1900 or prior to 1895 when smokeless powder rounds started to appear. Your thoughts? Thanks you.
Brett
Oldleverman said
Bert,What do you estimate the total production numbers and percetage is for the 38-56 and 40-82, both BP rounds? I would think the two rounds would have been popular prior to 1900 or prior to 1895 when smokeless powder rounds started to appear. Your thoughts? Thanks you.
Brett
Read Post #16 in this topic string…
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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