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Winchester 1885 Winder Musket sticker shock
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December 28, 2023 - 3:13 pm
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TXGunNut said I think it would have made a fine marksmanship training rifle for a Boy Scout or school shooting program and I believe that’s where many of them went.
  

They were promoted for use by the Win Jr Rifle Corps & sold to members at a discounted price, but eligibility only extended to age 18; these guns might have been a bit heavy for younger boys.  Also sold through DCM, with the price declining through about 1930, when the supply was exhausted. 

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December 28, 2023 - 5:45 pm
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To start this out, I am still actively surveying all the Winder Muskets with serial numbers greater than 109999 (those outside of the letterable range).

Currently I have documented the following;

1. 1st Variation (high-wall) – 21 (most of this variation were in the letterable s/n range)

2. 2nd Variation (high-wall) – 398 (238 additional in the letterable s/n range)

3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If I include all of the 3rd Variation Winder Muskets in the < 110000 s/n range, the totals are as follows;

1. Not ordnance marked – 371

2. Ordnance marked – 1,344

Based on the fact that there were 11,419 ordnance marked Winder Muskets delivered to the U.S. Army (Springfield Armory), and I have documented 1,344 of them (11.7%), I have extrapolated that 3,170 non-ordnance marked Model 87 Winder Muskets were manufactured based on the 371 that I have documented.

The Junior Rifle Corps was one of the larger entities that specifically purchased a fair number of the Model 87 Winder Muskets.

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December 28, 2023 - 5:55 pm
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clarence said

TXGunNut said I think it would have made a fine marksmanship training rifle for a Boy Scout or school shooting program and I believe that’s where many of them went.  

They were promoted for use by the Win Jr Rifle Corps & sold to members at a discounted price, but eligibility only extended to age 18; these guns might have been a bit heavy for younger boys.  Also sold through DCM, with the price declining through about 1930, when the supply was exhausted. 

The supply was not exhausted until 1942.  I have a document that I obtained from the old Springfield Research service that lists (581) Model 87 Winder Muskets that were sold through the DCM in the years 1922 – 1942.  It shows that some were sold to the Boy Scouts, to College ROTC units, to American Legion Posts, and to several High Schools.

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December 28, 2023 - 6:06 pm
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Bert –

 

Thanks for all the additional information you provided.  Very interesting.

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December 28, 2023 - 6:26 pm
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Bert H. said
3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If rarity was the deciding factor in collector valuations (of course it isn’t), the non-ordnance marked guns, being scarcer, should be more valuable.

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December 28, 2023 - 7:19 pm
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Bert H. said
To start this out, I am still actively surveying all the Winder Muskets with serial numbers greater than 109999 (those outside of the letterable range).

Currently I have documented the following;

1. 1st Variation (high-wall) – 21 (most of this variation were in the letterable s/n range)

2. 2nd Variation (high-wall) – 398 (238 additional in the letterable s/n range)

3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If I include all of the 3rd Variation Winder Muskets in the < 110000 s/n range, the totals are as follows;

1. Not ordnance marked – 371

2. Ordnance marked – 1,344

Based on the fact that there were 11,419 ordnance marked Winder Muskets delivered to the U.S. Army (Springfield Armory), and I have documented 1,344 of them (11.7%), I have extrapolated that 3,170 non-ordnance marked Model 87 Winder Muskets were manufactured based on the 371 that I have documented.

The Junior Rifle Corps was one of the larger entities that specifically purchased a fair number of the Model 87 Winder Muskets.

Bert 

Bert,

If it wasn’t evident from the now removed link to the Winder musket in Post #1 of this thread, the serial number of that .22 short civilian production musket is 133354.  I purchased it on Tuesday evening.

Why?  Why do I even look at the Cabela’s website?  I think that Cabela’s is usually terribly overpriced, and if I am given a Cabela’s gift card, I usually give it to my wife to buy a hat or a shirt.

This time, my wife gave me a card and I had to spend it on myself.  Usually a mean feat to do without getting gouged.  But this musket, at $1299.97, ended up being the solution.  A bargain at Cabela’s, or even a fair price, is rare.

I got in my head a civilian production Winder musket was a $999 or less proposition, but those days, I guess, are long gone.

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December 28, 2023 - 7:40 pm
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clarence said

Bert H. said

3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If rarity was the deciding factor in collector valuations (of course it isn’t), the non-ordnance marked guns, being scarcer, should be more valuable.

  

The fact that collectors other than us simple “Winchester” types are competing for the Ordnance marked specimens is what drives the price on them higher than their “civilian” counterparts. A bigger crowd of buyers will always drive the prices higher!

I would love to find a decent Junior Rifle Corps Model 87 in 22 LR (with a Trap door butt plate).

Model-87-119184-Trap-door.jpgImage EnlargerModel-87-120456-Trap-door.jpgImage Enlarger

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December 28, 2023 - 7:42 pm
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Ian,

Wise choice buying that Model 87 Winder Musket!

Bert

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December 28, 2023 - 9:37 pm
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Bert H. said
Ian,

Wise choice buying that Model 87 Winder Musket!

Bert  

Thank you!  I’ve fired it already and it’s surprisingly accurate.

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December 28, 2023 - 9:39 pm
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Bert H. said

clarence said

Bert H. said

3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If rarity was the deciding factor in collector valuations (of course it isn’t), the non-ordnance marked guns, being scarcer, should be more valuable.

  

The fact that collectors other than us simple “Winchester” types are competing for the Ordnance marked specimens is what drives the price on them higher than their “civilian” counterparts. A bigger crowd of buyers will always drive the prices higher!

I would love to find a decent Junior Rifle Corps Model 87 in 22 LR (with a Trap door butt plate).

Model-87-119184-Trap-door.jpgImage EnlargerModel-87-120456-Trap-door.jpgImage Enlarger  

What percentage in your survey have this feature?  I assume it accommodates a .22 cal cleaning rod?

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December 28, 2023 - 10:55 pm
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mrcvs said

Bert H. said

clarence said

Bert H. said

3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If rarity was the deciding factor in collector valuations (of course it isn’t), the non-ordnance marked guns, being scarcer, should be more valuable.

  

The fact that collectors other than us simple “Winchester” types are competing for the Ordnance marked specimens is what drives the price on them higher than their “civilian” counterparts. A bigger crowd of buyers will always drive the prices higher!

I would love to find a decent Junior Rifle Corps Model 87 in 22 LR (with a Trap door butt plate).

Model-87-119184-Trap-door.jpgImage EnlargerModel-87-120456-Trap-door.jpgImage Enlarger  

What percentage in your survey have this feature?  I assume it accommodates a .22 cal cleaning rod?

  

Ian,

Thus far I have surveyed (33) of the non-government contract Model 87 Winder Muskets with a Trap Door butt.

It was not a “cleaning rod” that Winchester supplied with the .22 caliber Single Shots.  See the attached pictured (scanned from the 1920 Winchester catalog).

Winder-Musket-Flexible-Cleaner.jpgImage Enlarger

 

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December 28, 2023 - 11:13 pm
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mrcvs said

Bert H. said

Ian,

Wise choice buying that Model 87 Winder Musket!

Bert  

Thank you!  I’ve fired it already and it’s surprisingly accurate.

I have mentioned this before, but will repeat it again for everyone who is not aware…

When Winchester began development and manufacture of the Model 52, they used up several thousand leftover Winder Musket barrels.  If you look closely at the Pre-A series Model 52 rifles, they nearly all have a 2nd Variation Winder Musket barrel.  Of further note, there are a substantial number of 2nd Variation Winder Muskets that letter with a Winchester B3, B4, B5, or A5 Telescope, and/or a Lyman No. 103 micrometer tang sight.  The attached picture is a scanned copy of the ledger page for s/n 95953… with a B3 Telescope.  Also take note of the various calibers & configurations for the eight Single Shot rifles shown.

All of the Winder Muskets I have owned shoot way better than I can, and are capable of remarkable accuracy!

95950-58-1.jpgImage Enlarger

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December 29, 2023 - 12:16 am
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Bert H. said

It was not a “cleaning rod” that Winchester supplied with the .22 caliber Single Shots.  See the attached pictured (scanned from the 1920 Winchester catalog).

A pull-through, in other words; “OK” for field use, but I’d have asked for a 4 or 5-pc jointed rod.

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December 29, 2023 - 12:26 am
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clarence said

Bert H. said

It was not a “cleaning rod” that Winchester supplied with the .22 caliber Single Shots.  See the attached pictured (scanned from the 1920 Winchester catalog).

A pull-through, in other words; “OK” for field use, but I’d have asked for a 4 or 5-pc jointed rod.

You would have gone without one if you asked Winchester to supply it.

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December 29, 2023 - 12:41 am
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Congrats on the Winder, Ian. Glad it shoots well for you. I’ve bought more than a few guns from Cabela’s but have passed on thousands. It gets a little discouraging at times but every now and then something special comes along. My local store is not as easy to deal with as in times past but now and then it’s been well worth my while to stop by and see what they have. Manager and the area buyer have my contact info but I’m still waiting for them to call when something I may be interested in comes in.

Quite the ledger page, Bert. Just the guns in that pic would be an enviable SS collection today.

 

 

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December 29, 2023 - 1:44 am
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TXGunNut said
Congrats on the Winder, Ian. Glad it shoots well for you. I’ve bought more than a few guns from Cabela’s but have passed on thousands. It gets a little discouraging at times but every now and then something special comes along. My local store is not as easy to deal with as in times past but now and then it’s been well worth my while to stop by and see what they have. Manager and the area buyer have my contact info but I’m still waiting for them to call when something I may be interested in comes in.  

Thank you for the compliment.  It’s RARE that anything worth even looking at comes along.  Most of what Cabela’s has is high on price and low on condition.  You want a Winchester 1886 with condition issues priced at two or three times what it’s worth, there’s ample opportunity to buy one of those.

I find Cabela’s is more willing to negotiate than in the past, probably ever since the became owned by Bass Pro, but maybe everything is priced a lot higher now and so they can come down more than in the past.

I had heard that when a price ends in a “7” that that’s as low as Cabela’s would go.  Hence the “sticker shock” title of this thread.  The original price was $2199.99 and was dropped to $1799.97.  I thought that this price ending in a “7” meant that was it.  A forum member stated the price had dropped yet again to $1299.97 and so the “7” ending point was a myth.  I tried calling first and it was tough getting through and they had no idea what rifke I was talking about.  But when I got there, I gave them the SKU number and they quickly located the rifke—with a $1799.97 price tag on it still.  I showed them the $1299.97 price on line, and they honored that.  I tried to get another $100 off and they claimed they were already selling it at a loss.  Not sure if I believe that!

I wouldn’t wait for them to call you back—you might wait a LONG time!  I’ve called in the past about a particular firearm—and I’m a potential paying customer—and often get no response.  And why should I?  I’m guessing gun room employees are hourly employees paid at retail wages, so whether they sell a firearm or not doesn’t matter to them.

I’m not really sure how it works as far as a business model when you pay retail associate wages and yet have a customer bring in a potential high dollar firearm and expect them to negotiate a purchase with a substantial markup for retail sale to a store customer???

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December 29, 2023 - 2:14 am
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Ian-

I have had little luck negotiating prices at my local store since the Bass Pro takeover. Before then I was very familiar with pricing strategies and had a good idea how long the gun had been on the shelf based on their inventory number. Their minimum price nowadays seems to be their actual cost plus a fixed percentage for overhead, etc and they seem to think it is engraved in stone. My local store won’t budge much off price marked until it’s been on the rack for a period of time, I suspect it’s 30 days. I don’t have a good relationship with the current manager so with a few exceptions I haven’t gotten the smoking deals I got before Johnny took over. One thing to consider is that a pristine gun will suffer some “shop wear” in 30 or more days on the rack and it will also be posted to their website and possibly others after a week or two. My best deals lately have come on guns that have been on the Library rack a few weeks or even a few days but in almost every case I had to pay full price. I can’t explain the price on this Musket but I’m glad you were watching and took advantage of it. For some reason it appears to be under their “minimum”.

 

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December 29, 2023 - 2:47 am
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mrcvs said

I tried to get another $100 off and they claimed they were already selling it at a loss.  Not sure if I believe that!

Check yourself in to the Alzheimer’s ward when you start believing ANY claim like that!  Or, “but I’ve got more than that in it.”

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December 29, 2023 - 3:29 am
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Bert,

I am ANXIOUSLY awaiting your 1885/87 book, no excuse now that you are retired!  As this thread indicates, it is sorely needed!

Best Regards,

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December 29, 2023 - 4:04 am
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JWA said
Bert,

I am ANXIOUSLY awaiting your 1885/87 book, no excuse now that you are retired!  As this thread indicates, it is sorely needed!

Best Regards,

Jeff,

I was working on it just before you interrupted me with your message above!

Seriously, I have been spending a lot more time this past year working on it, and I have been making very good progress on it.

Bert

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