Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Winchester 1885 Winder Musket sticker shock
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6354
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
21
December 28, 2023 - 3:13 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said I think it would have made a fine marksmanship training rifle for a Boy Scout or school shooting program and I believe that’s where many of them went.
  

They were promoted for use by the Win Jr Rifle Corps & sold to members at a discounted price, but eligibility only extended to age 18; these guns might have been a bit heavy for younger boys.  Also sold through DCM, with the price declining through about 1930, when the supply was exhausted. 

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10814
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
22
December 28, 2023 - 5:45 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

To start this out, I am still actively surveying all the Winder Muskets with serial numbers greater than 109999 (those outside of the letterable range).

Currently I have documented the following;

1. 1st Variation (high-wall) – 21 (most of this variation were in the letterable s/n range)

2. 2nd Variation (high-wall) – 398 (238 additional in the letterable s/n range)

3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If I include all of the 3rd Variation Winder Muskets in the < 110000 s/n range, the totals are as follows;

1. Not ordnance marked – 371

2. Ordnance marked – 1,344

Based on the fact that there were 11,419 ordnance marked Winder Muskets delivered to the U.S. Army (Springfield Armory), and I have documented 1,344 of them (11.7%), I have extrapolated that 3,170 non-ordnance marked Model 87 Winder Muskets were manufactured based on the 371 that I have documented.

The Junior Rifle Corps was one of the larger entities that specifically purchased a fair number of the Model 87 Winder Muskets.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10814
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
23
December 28, 2023 - 5:55 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

clarence said

TXGunNut said I think it would have made a fine marksmanship training rifle for a Boy Scout or school shooting program and I believe that’s where many of them went.  

They were promoted for use by the Win Jr Rifle Corps & sold to members at a discounted price, but eligibility only extended to age 18; these guns might have been a bit heavy for younger boys.  Also sold through DCM, with the price declining through about 1930, when the supply was exhausted. 

The supply was not exhausted until 1942.  I have a document that I obtained from the old Springfield Research service that lists (581) Model 87 Winder Muskets that were sold through the DCM in the years 1922 – 1942.  It shows that some were sold to the Boy Scouts, to College ROTC units, to American Legion Posts, and to several High Schools.

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4244
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
24
December 28, 2023 - 6:06 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert –

 

Thanks for all the additional information you provided.  Very interesting.

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6354
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
25
December 28, 2023 - 6:26 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If rarity was the deciding factor in collector valuations (of course it isn’t), the non-ordnance marked guns, being scarcer, should be more valuable.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1723
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
26
December 28, 2023 - 7:19 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
To start this out, I am still actively surveying all the Winder Muskets with serial numbers greater than 109999 (those outside of the letterable range).

Currently I have documented the following;

1. 1st Variation (high-wall) – 21 (most of this variation were in the letterable s/n range)

2. 2nd Variation (high-wall) – 398 (238 additional in the letterable s/n range)

3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If I include all of the 3rd Variation Winder Muskets in the < 110000 s/n range, the totals are as follows;

1. Not ordnance marked – 371

2. Ordnance marked – 1,344

Based on the fact that there were 11,419 ordnance marked Winder Muskets delivered to the U.S. Army (Springfield Armory), and I have documented 1,344 of them (11.7%), I have extrapolated that 3,170 non-ordnance marked Model 87 Winder Muskets were manufactured based on the 371 that I have documented.

The Junior Rifle Corps was one of the larger entities that specifically purchased a fair number of the Model 87 Winder Muskets.

Bert 

Bert,

If it wasn’t evident from the now removed link to the Winder musket in Post #1 of this thread, the serial number of that .22 short civilian production musket is 133354.  I purchased it on Tuesday evening.

Why?  Why do I even look at the Cabela’s website?  I think that Cabela’s is usually terribly overpriced, and if I am given a Cabela’s gift card, I usually give it to my wife to buy a hat or a shirt.

This time, my wife gave me a card and I had to spend it on myself.  Usually a mean feat to do without getting gouged.  But this musket, at $1299.97, ended up being the solution.  A bargain at Cabela’s, or even a fair price, is rare.

I got in my head a civilian production Winder musket was a $999 or less proposition, but those days, I guess, are long gone.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10814
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
27
December 28, 2023 - 7:40 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

Bert H. said

3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If rarity was the deciding factor in collector valuations (of course it isn’t), the non-ordnance marked guns, being scarcer, should be more valuable.

  

The fact that collectors other than us simple “Winchester” types are competing for the Ordnance marked specimens is what drives the price on them higher than their “civilian” counterparts. A bigger crowd of buyers will always drive the prices higher!

I would love to find a decent Junior Rifle Corps Model 87 in 22 LR (with a Trap door butt plate).

Model-87-119184-Trap-door.jpgImage EnlargerModel-87-120456-Trap-door.jpgImage Enlarger

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10814
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
28
December 28, 2023 - 7:42 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Ian,

Wise choice buying that Model 87 Winder Musket!

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1723
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
29
December 28, 2023 - 9:37 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
Ian,

Wise choice buying that Model 87 Winder Musket!

Bert  

Thank you!  I’ve fired it already and it’s surprisingly accurate.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1723
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
30
December 28, 2023 - 9:39 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said

clarence said

Bert H. said

3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If rarity was the deciding factor in collector valuations (of course it isn’t), the non-ordnance marked guns, being scarcer, should be more valuable.

  

The fact that collectors other than us simple “Winchester” types are competing for the Ordnance marked specimens is what drives the price on them higher than their “civilian” counterparts. A bigger crowd of buyers will always drive the prices higher!

I would love to find a decent Junior Rifle Corps Model 87 in 22 LR (with a Trap door butt plate).

Model-87-119184-Trap-door.jpgImage EnlargerModel-87-120456-Trap-door.jpgImage Enlarger  

What percentage in your survey have this feature?  I assume it accommodates a .22 cal cleaning rod?

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10814
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
31
December 28, 2023 - 10:55 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

mrcvs said

Bert H. said

clarence said

Bert H. said

3. 3rd Variation (low-wall profile) – 338 (not ordnance marked), 1,204 Ordnance marked, total documented = 1,542 in the non letterable range.

If rarity was the deciding factor in collector valuations (of course it isn’t), the non-ordnance marked guns, being scarcer, should be more valuable.

  

The fact that collectors other than us simple “Winchester” types are competing for the Ordnance marked specimens is what drives the price on them higher than their “civilian” counterparts. A bigger crowd of buyers will always drive the prices higher!

I would love to find a decent Junior Rifle Corps Model 87 in 22 LR (with a Trap door butt plate).

Model-87-119184-Trap-door.jpgImage EnlargerModel-87-120456-Trap-door.jpgImage Enlarger  

What percentage in your survey have this feature?  I assume it accommodates a .22 cal cleaning rod?

  

Ian,

Thus far I have surveyed (33) of the non-government contract Model 87 Winder Muskets with a Trap Door butt.

It was not a “cleaning rod” that Winchester supplied with the .22 caliber Single Shots.  See the attached pictured (scanned from the 1920 Winchester catalog).

Winder-Musket-Flexible-Cleaner.jpgImage Enlarger

 

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10814
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
32
December 28, 2023 - 11:13 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

mrcvs said

Bert H. said

Ian,

Wise choice buying that Model 87 Winder Musket!

Bert  

Thank you!  I’ve fired it already and it’s surprisingly accurate.

I have mentioned this before, but will repeat it again for everyone who is not aware…

When Winchester began development and manufacture of the Model 52, they used up several thousand leftover Winder Musket barrels.  If you look closely at the Pre-A series Model 52 rifles, they nearly all have a 2nd Variation Winder Musket barrel.  Of further note, there are a substantial number of 2nd Variation Winder Muskets that letter with a Winchester B3, B4, B5, or A5 Telescope, and/or a Lyman No. 103 micrometer tang sight.  The attached picture is a scanned copy of the ledger page for s/n 95953… with a B3 Telescope.  Also take note of the various calibers & configurations for the eight Single Shot rifles shown.

All of the Winder Muskets I have owned shoot way better than I can, and are capable of remarkable accuracy!

95950-58-1.jpgImage Enlarger

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6354
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
33
December 29, 2023 - 12:16 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said

It was not a “cleaning rod” that Winchester supplied with the .22 caliber Single Shots.  See the attached pictured (scanned from the 1920 Winchester catalog).

A pull-through, in other words; “OK” for field use, but I’d have asked for a 4 or 5-pc jointed rod.

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10814
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
34
December 29, 2023 - 12:26 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

clarence said

Bert H. said

It was not a “cleaning rod” that Winchester supplied with the .22 caliber Single Shots.  See the attached pictured (scanned from the 1920 Winchester catalog).

A pull-through, in other words; “OK” for field use, but I’d have asked for a 4 or 5-pc jointed rod.

You would have gone without one if you asked Winchester to supply it.

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5015
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
35
December 29, 2023 - 12:41 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Congrats on the Winder, Ian. Glad it shoots well for you. I’ve bought more than a few guns from Cabela’s but have passed on thousands. It gets a little discouraging at times but every now and then something special comes along. My local store is not as easy to deal with as in times past but now and then it’s been well worth my while to stop by and see what they have. Manager and the area buyer have my contact info but I’m still waiting for them to call when something I may be interested in comes in.

Quite the ledger page, Bert. Just the guns in that pic would be an enviable SS collection today.

 

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1723
Member Since:
September 22, 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
36
December 29, 2023 - 1:44 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

TXGunNut said
Congrats on the Winder, Ian. Glad it shoots well for you. I’ve bought more than a few guns from Cabela’s but have passed on thousands. It gets a little discouraging at times but every now and then something special comes along. My local store is not as easy to deal with as in times past but now and then it’s been well worth my while to stop by and see what they have. Manager and the area buyer have my contact info but I’m still waiting for them to call when something I may be interested in comes in.  

Thank you for the compliment.  It’s RARE that anything worth even looking at comes along.  Most of what Cabela’s has is high on price and low on condition.  You want a Winchester 1886 with condition issues priced at two or three times what it’s worth, there’s ample opportunity to buy one of those.

I find Cabela’s is more willing to negotiate than in the past, probably ever since the became owned by Bass Pro, but maybe everything is priced a lot higher now and so they can come down more than in the past.

I had heard that when a price ends in a “7” that that’s as low as Cabela’s would go.  Hence the “sticker shock” title of this thread.  The original price was $2199.99 and was dropped to $1799.97.  I thought that this price ending in a “7” meant that was it.  A forum member stated the price had dropped yet again to $1299.97 and so the “7” ending point was a myth.  I tried calling first and it was tough getting through and they had no idea what rifke I was talking about.  But when I got there, I gave them the SKU number and they quickly located the rifke—with a $1799.97 price tag on it still.  I showed them the $1299.97 price on line, and they honored that.  I tried to get another $100 off and they claimed they were already selling it at a loss.  Not sure if I believe that!

I wouldn’t wait for them to call you back—you might wait a LONG time!  I’ve called in the past about a particular firearm—and I’m a potential paying customer—and often get no response.  And why should I?  I’m guessing gun room employees are hourly employees paid at retail wages, so whether they sell a firearm or not doesn’t matter to them.

I’m not really sure how it works as far as a business model when you pay retail associate wages and yet have a customer bring in a potential high dollar firearm and expect them to negotiate a purchase with a substantial markup for retail sale to a store customer???

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5015
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
37
December 29, 2023 - 2:14 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Ian-

I have had little luck negotiating prices at my local store since the Bass Pro takeover. Before then I was very familiar with pricing strategies and had a good idea how long the gun had been on the shelf based on their inventory number. Their minimum price nowadays seems to be their actual cost plus a fixed percentage for overhead, etc and they seem to think it is engraved in stone. My local store won’t budge much off price marked until it’s been on the rack for a period of time, I suspect it’s 30 days. I don’t have a good relationship with the current manager so with a few exceptions I haven’t gotten the smoking deals I got before Johnny took over. One thing to consider is that a pristine gun will suffer some “shop wear” in 30 or more days on the rack and it will also be posted to their website and possibly others after a week or two. My best deals lately have come on guns that have been on the Library rack a few weeks or even a few days but in almost every case I had to pay full price. I can’t explain the price on this Musket but I’m glad you were watching and took advantage of it. For some reason it appears to be under their “minimum”.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
NY
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 6354
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
38
December 29, 2023 - 2:47 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

mrcvs said

I tried to get another $100 off and they claimed they were already selling it at a loss.  Not sure if I believe that!

Check yourself in to the Alzheimer’s ward when you start believing ANY claim like that!  Or, “but I’ve got more than that in it.”

Avatar
Location: 32000' +
Moderator
Moderator
Forum Posts: 2110
Member Since:
July 17, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
39
December 29, 2023 - 3:29 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Bert,

I am ANXIOUSLY awaiting your 1885/87 book, no excuse now that you are retired!  As this thread indicates, it is sorely needed!

Best Regards,

WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire

http://rimfirepublications.com/  

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 10814
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
40
December 29, 2023 - 4:04 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

JWA said
Bert,

I am ANXIOUSLY awaiting your 1885/87 book, no excuse now that you are retired!  As this thread indicates, it is sorely needed!

Best Regards,

Jeff,

I was working on it just before you interrupted me with your message above!

Seriously, I have been spending a lot more time this past year working on it, and I have been making very good progress on it.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 778
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 6354
TXGunNut: 5015
Chuck: 4596
1873man: 4317
steve004: 4244
Big Larry: 2338
twobit: 2293
mrcvs: 1723
TR: 1722
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 17
Topics: 12736
Posts: 110930

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1758
Members: 8842
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation