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pine_worker said
Can the OP edit his post to reflect 1886 instead of 1866?
Done
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
JWA said
pine_worker said
Can the OP edit his post to reflect 1886 instead of 1866?
Done
You even updated the location, thank you!
Blue Ridge Parson said
Another factor that influences desirability (and therefore value) is the condition of the bore. Since these 19th Century rifles were used with black powder, whose corrosive effects on steel are well known, the bore on many of these old Winchester rifles is quite poor. The condition of the bore in the rifle in question has a dramatic effect on value. Rifles of this era with excellent bores are the exception, as most are quite pitted and some have deteriorated to the point of being unusable. Bore condition will have quite a lot of effect on value.
This is the STUPIDEST thing when it comes to the value of antique Winchester rifles: “What is the condition of the bore?”
Most folks don’t shoot these. You have to be able to reload and, if you reload, good luck finding.40-82 brass. And, if you do shoot it, you are much more likely to use another rifle if a shot matters, such as for deer hunting.
November 7, 2015
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mrcvs said
Blue Ridge Parson said
Another factor that influences desirability (and therefore value) is the condition of the bore. Since these 19th Century rifles were used with black powder, whose corrosive effects on steel are well known, the bore on many of these old Winchester rifles is quite poor. The condition of the bore in the rifle in question has a dramatic effect on value. Rifles of this era with excellent bores are the exception, as most are quite pitted and some have deteriorated to the point of being unusable. Bore condition will have quite a lot of effect on value.
This is the STUPIDEST thing when it comes to the value of antique Winchester rifles: “What is the condition of the bore?”
Most folks don’t shoot these. You have to be able to reload and, if you reload, good luck finding.40-82 brass. And, if you do shoot it, you are much more likely to use another rifle if a shot matters, such as for deer hunting.
Quite honestly shooting old Winchesters is one of my favorite things about collecting old Winchesters. I started loading and casting long before I started collecting old Winchesters so it was just natural to learn how to load for them.
Mike
Online
I agree with the value estimates. I don’t dislike the .40-82 chambering (and I do load for it) but it would be a much better scenario if it were a .45-70 or a .45-90.
As far as the importance of bore condition, opinions vary a good amount. Ask Brooksy on this topic 
TXGunNut said
mrcvs said
Blue Ridge Parson said
Another factor that influences desirability (and therefore value) is the condition of the bore. Since these 19th Century rifles were used with black powder, whose corrosive effects on steel are well known, the bore on many of these old Winchester rifles is quite poor. The condition of the bore in the rifle in question has a dramatic effect on value. Rifles of this era with excellent bores are the exception, as most are quite pitted and some have deteriorated to the point of being unusable. Bore condition will have quite a lot of effect on value.
This is the STUPIDEST thing when it comes to the value of antique Winchester rifles: “What is the condition of the bore?”
Most folks don’t shoot these. You have to be able to reload and, if you reload, good luck finding.40-82 brass. And, if you do shoot it, you are much more likely to use another rifle if a shot matters, such as for deer hunting.
Quite honestly shooting old Winchesters is one of my favorite things about collecting old Winchesters. I started loading and casting long before I started collecting old Winchesters so it was just natural to learn how to load for them.
I reload and shoot oddball calibers, like .40-82. Fortunately I have brass for it. Most don’t.
Be honest with yourself. What percentage of shooter grade Winchesters are actually shot? It has to be very low.
When I go to the range, no one else shoots this stuff. It’s mostly black plastic stuff or at least a rifle with a scope.
With all due respect to mrcvs, I’m not sure which of his two assertions are more preposterous!
Ridiculous assertion #1 “Most folks don’t shoot these.”
Oh really? I had no idea you did an exhaustive survey of each and every person who owns, or has ever owned, a Winchester 1886 in 40-82. If so, you somehow did not include me or my rifle in your results. If you had asked me, I would have reported that mine is one for which I reloaded and fired many rounds of ammunition. If, in fact, you have not conducted such an exhaustive survey, you might choose to refrain from making blanket statements on behalf of “most folks.”
Ridiculous assertion #2 That there is no correlation between condition of a rifle and its value.
Seriously? Given the opportunity to purchase one of two identical 1886 Winchester rifles, in the same caliber, with identical condition, one with a great bore and one with a not very great bore, are you really saying you would not choose the one with the better bore condition? That is why those with better bores sell for more than those that lack them. The one who says he would not choose the one with the better bore is either a liar or a fool. Either way, it puts the lie to your assertion.
BRP
Blue Ridge Parson said
With all due respect to mrcvs, I’m not sure which of his two assertions are more preposterous!Ridiculous assertion #1 “Most folks don’t shoot these.”
Oh really? I had no idea you did an exhaustive survey of each and every person who owns, or has ever owned, a Winchester 1886 in 40-82. If so, you somehow did not include me or my rifle in your results. If you had asked me, I would have reported that mine is one for which I reloaded and fired many rounds of ammunition. If, in fact, you have not conducted such an exhaustive survey, you might choose to refrain from making blanket statements on behalf of “most folks.”
Ridiculous assertion #2 That there is no correlation between condition of a rifle and its value.
Seriously? Given the opportunity to purchase one of two identical 1886 Winchester rifles, in the same caliber, with identical condition, one with a great bore and one with a not very great bore, are you really saying you would not choose the one with the better bore condition? That is why those with better bores sell for more than those that lack them. The one who says he would not choose the one with the better bore is either a liar or a fool. Either way, it puts the lie to your assertion.
The vast majority of these could be fired, but of those, the vast majority are not. If they are, where? Not at any of the several gun clubs I belong to. Maybe when I’m not there, but aficionados are few and far between. They surely aren’t all being shot on private land.
Yes, of course I would pay more for a better bore, but folks reject an antique rifle because it has a bad bore being of the mindset they are going to run 500 rounds a year down it. The reality is, that’s purely wishful thinking and many of these “shooter grade” rifles don’t get more than 20 or 40 rounds shot through them in a decade.
mrcvs said
Blue Ridge Parson said
Another factor that influences desirability (and therefore value) is the condition of the bore. Since these 19th Century rifles were used with black powder, whose corrosive effects on steel are well known, the bore on many of these old Winchester rifles is quite poor. The condition of the bore in the rifle in question has a dramatic effect on value. Rifles of this era with excellent bores are the exception, as most are quite pitted and some have deteriorated to the point of being unusable. Bore condition will have quite a lot of effect on value.
This is the STUPIDEST thing when it comes to the value of antique Winchester rifles: “What is the condition of the bore?”
Most folks don’t shoot these. You have to be able to reload and, if you reload, good luck finding.40-82 brass. And, if you do shoot it, you are much more likely to use another rifle if a shot matters, such as for deer hunting.
Ian,
You are dead wrong in both of your statements above. I personally know at least a half dozen Winchester collectors that reload and shoot the 40-82 WCF, and bore condition is VERY important to the potential value of an old “shooter” grade Winchester.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
mrcvs said
Blue Ridge Parson said
With all due respect to mrcvs, I’m not sure which of his two assertions are more preposterous!
Ridiculous assertion #1 “Most folks don’t shoot these.”
Oh really? I had no idea you did an exhaustive survey of each and every person who owns, or has ever owned, a Winchester 1886 in 40-82. If so, you somehow did not include me or my rifle in your results. If you had asked me, I would have reported that mine is one for which I reloaded and fired many rounds of ammunition. If, in fact, you have not conducted such an exhaustive survey, you might choose to refrain from making blanket statements on behalf of “most folks.”
Ridiculous assertion #2 That there is no correlation between condition of a rifle and its value.
Seriously? Given the opportunity to purchase one of two identical 1886 Winchester rifles, in the same caliber, with identical condition, one with a great bore and one with a not very great bore, are you really saying you would not choose the one with the better bore condition? That is why those with better bores sell for more than those that lack them. The one who says he would not choose the one with the better bore is either a liar or a fool. Either way, it puts the lie to your assertion.
The vast majority of these could be fired, but of those, the vast majority are not. If they are, where? Not at any of the several gun clubs I belong to. Maybe when I’m not there, but aficionados are few and far between. They surely aren’t all being shot on private land.
Yes, of course I would pay more for a better bore, but folks reject an antique rifle because it has a bad bore being of the mindset they are going to run 500 rounds a year down it. The reality is, that’s purely wishful thinking and many of these “shooter grade” rifles don’t get more than 20 or 40 rounds shot through them in a decade.
Ian,
You are being very short-sighted, and I suspect that it is partly due to where you are located. Again, bore condition is an absolutely important factor in my decision to purchase an old Winchester rifle or not. You are in a very small minority if you truly believe the bore condition is not important on an antique Winchester.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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BRP-
It may not make sense to us but it’s quite possible a majority of Winchester collectors don’t shoot the guns they collect and I’m willing to bet a (very small) percentage are not what we would classify as regular shooters of any type firearm. I don’t know how many would be interested in the bore condition but it’s probably less than I’d expect. When I shoot my old Winchesters I feel like I’m touching history but for some of us just looking at them and maybe handling them now and then is enough. Chasing down obscure tooling and components to spend hours dabbling around in a loading room doesn’t appeal to most folks. Some collectors don’t feel comfortable loading ammunition and some don’t want to pay today’s prices for ammunition to feed vintage firearms. I’m OK with that.
Mike
Okay, I’ll admit I must be wrong, but it seems that if folks were regularly shooting these rifles (other than .45-70 and .45-90), you could, with little effort, purchase brass in .38-56, .40-82, .33 Winchester, etc. Ever since Bertram Brass exited the scene in this country, brass as such can be a tall order to fill unless you re form .45-70 to .33 Winchester, for example.
I go to gun shows and see these tired old shooter grade Winchesters at show after show with the same high price tag, and virtually no interest.
TXGunNut said
BRP-It may not make sense to us but it’s quite possible a majority of Winchester collectors don’t shoot the guns they collect and I’m willing to bet a (very small) percentage are not what we would classify as regular shooters of any type firearm. I don’t know how many would be interested in the bore condition but it’s probably less than I’d expect. When I shoot my old Winchesters I feel like I’m touching history but for some of us just looking at them and maybe handling them now and then is enough. Chasing down obscure tooling and components to spend hours dabbling around in a loading room doesn’t appeal to most folks. Some collectors don’t feel comfortable loading ammunition and some don’t want to pay today’s prices for ammunition to feed vintage firearms. I’m OK with that.
Mike
I disagree… based on my interaction with hundreds of Winchester collectors over the past 40+ years, well more than half of them consider the bore condition an important factor in determining if an old Winchester is worth buying, and for how much… whether or not they ever intend to shoot it. I ask that you pick up your copy of the Red Book and read pages 14 & 15.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
mrcvs said
I go to gun shows and see these tired old shooter grade Winchesters at show after show with the same high price tag, and virtually no interest.
An overpriced “shooter” grade gun is never going to sell regardless of the bore condition.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Offline
Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
BRP-
It may not make sense to us but it’s quite possible a majority of Winchester collectors don’t shoot the guns they collect and I’m willing to bet a (very small) percentage are not what we would classify as regular shooters of any type firearm. I don’t know how many would be interested in the bore condition but it’s probably less than I’d expect. When I shoot my old Winchesters I feel like I’m touching history but for some of us just looking at them and maybe handling them now and then is enough. Chasing down obscure tooling and components to spend hours dabbling around in a loading room doesn’t appeal to most folks. Some collectors don’t feel comfortable loading ammunition and some don’t want to pay today’s prices for ammunition to feed vintage firearms. I’m OK with that.
Mike
I disagree… based on my interaction with hundreds of Winchester collectors over the past 40+ years, well more than half of them consider the bore condition and important factor in determining if an old Winchester is worth buying, and for how much… whether or not they ever intend to shoot it. I ask that you pick up your copy of the Re3d Book and read pages 14 & 15.
Bert
Bert, you misunderstood me. I expect the vast majority of folks would be very interested in the bore condition but I’ve noticed that a surprising percentage never look down the bore. It’s a small percentage but more than I think it should be.
Mike
A bright shiny bore is a joy. Even with an older shooter grade rifle showing a fair amount of finish wear and use, it is a very pleasant surprise to look down the bore and find it is in top condition. Such a result inspires me to feel much more positively about the rifle as it shows someone cared for it. A rifle with little finish left and hunting dings etc. doesn’t necessarily mean someone didn’t care for it, it might mean they just used it a whole lot. But a pitted bore is not a sign of good care.
Even if you want to look down the bore, how can you at a gun show when the plastic band is applied through the lever to disable opening the action?
November 7, 2015
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steve004 said
A bright shiny bore is a joy. Even with an older shooter grade rifle showing a fair amount of finish wear and use, it is a very pleasant surprise to look down the bore and find it is in top condition. Such a result inspires me to feel much more positively about the rifle as it shows someone cared for it. A rifle with little finish left and hunting dings etc. doesn’t necessarily mean someone didn’t care for it, it might mean they just used it a whole lot. But a pitted bore is not a sign of good care.
Steve-
I like well-worn shooters too but one with a shiny bore, especially one with no visible throat erosion, causes me to check for a liner. I expect to see a bit of pitting in most rifles active during the era of corrosive primers. I think the maintenance requirements involved with corrosive primers came as an unpleasant surprise to a lot of shooters, they didn’t notice the pitting until it was too late.
Mike
November 7, 2015
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mrcvs said
Even if you want to look down the bore, how can you at a gun show when the plastic band is applied through the lever to disable opening the action?
Ian-
I keep a cutter and extra ties handy and ask the seller’s permission. Some collectors have a handy little LED light that drops down the bore to shed a bit of light on those lands and grooves.
Mike
TXGunNut said
steve004 said
A bright shiny bore is a joy. Even with an older shooter grade rifle showing a fair amount of finish wear and use, it is a very pleasant surprise to look down the bore and find it is in top condition. Such a result inspires me to feel much more positively about the rifle as it shows someone cared for it. A rifle with little finish left and hunting dings etc. doesn’t necessarily mean someone didn’t care for it, it might mean they just used it a whole lot. But a pitted bore is not a sign of good care.
Steve-
I like well-worn shooters too but one with a shiny bore, especially one with no visible throat erosion, causes me to check for a liner. I expect to see a bit of pitting in most rifles active during the era of corrosive primers. I think the maintenance requirements involved with corrosive primers came as an unpleasant surprise to a lot of shooters, they didn’t notice the pitting until it was too late.
Mike
Mike – that’s why it is a particular joy – the excellent bore (without a liner present) is not common on these old-times. And maybe I am being a bit harsh on the shooters of old – those corrosive primers were nasty.
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