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I’m have always been curious about how many model 70’s WRA sold the government in WWII.
I was playing around some in WRA docs today and you can see the Government bought for example 8,294 centerfire rifles in 1942. I’m imagining a large porporiton of all these sales are model 70’s. But what else did WRA sell them? It’s not the M1 or Carbine as that is listed seperate.
Steve,
Great information, Bud, thanks!
JWA oughta be able to help us out on this note as I recall he was searching for information regarding the .22’s.
James
The interesting thing is, everyone talks about the 373 Model 70’s purchased by the MArines in early 1942.
But in 1944, I have a document that details to sell 371 of those Model 70’s through post exchanges. This order to do so is approved.
I have Army sniper rifle trials dated Nov 18th 1942 that shows what it calls a Model 70 sniper rifle. Which it looks like a standard commercial rifle in a target stock, with a Weaver 330 with the silent screw adjustments, and a redfield base.
The other thing is, everyone always says those 373 above became team rifles, and later they became sniper rifles in Vietnam. When the rifle team equipment was transferred from the Philly Depot to Albany in 1954, when Philly Closed. The Marines detail they only have 70 Model 70 Target rifles in 30 CAl, 10 of the NRA lightweight Model 70’s (NM), and then 12 of the .300 Win Mag. Which the pics of these, they are all in target stocks, and not the sporter commercial stock like you see in Nam Sniper pics.
I don’t think anyone has investigated all these Model 70’s that were probably sold to the Army. I’m guessing it was in the thousands. Which the Marines might have honestly even acquired these for the sniper builds of Vietnam.
I have a feeling that a lot of the info we see in books on the history of how the Marines acquired the Model 70’s in Nam is probably not correct.
Something about this whole story isn’t adding up correctly.
Steve,
To the best of my knowledge, there were no other center fire Models that were manufactured or sold to the U.S. government during WW II.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I can just about guarantee there were no 300 Win Mag model 70’s in that batch of 70’s listed in 1954. Winchester didn’t introduce the round until 1963. Perhaps they are referring to H&H mags?
Steve
steven norton said
The interesting thing is, everyone talks about the 373 Model 70’s purchased by the MArines in early 1942.But in 1944, I have a document that details to sell 371 of those Model 70’s through post exchanges. This order to do so is approved.
I have Army sniper rifle trials dated Nov 18th 1942 that shows what it calls a Model 70 sniper rifle. Which it looks like a standard commercial rifle in a target stock, with a Weaver 330 with the silent screw adjustments, and a redfield base.
The other thing is, everyone always says those 373 above became team rifles, and later they became sniper rifles in Vietnam. When the rifle team equipment was transferred from the Philly Depot to Albany in 1954, when Philly Closed. The Marines detail they only have 70 Model 70 Target rifles in 30 CAl, 10 of the NRA lightweight Model 70’s (NM), and then 12 of the .300 Win Mag. Which the pics of these, they are all in target stocks, and not the sporter commercial stock like you see in Nam Sniper pics.
I don’t think anyone has investigated all these Model 70’s that were probably sold to the Army. I’m guessing it was in the thousands. Which the Marines might have honestly even acquired these for the sniper builds of Vietnam.
I have a feeling that a lot of the info we see in books on the history of how the Marines acquired the Model 70’s in Nam is probably not correct.
Something about this whole story isn’t adding up correctly.
Steve,
It’s highly commendable of the work you have done regarding these issues.
In reference to the Model 70 and its use in Vietnam: Do you have any first hand accounts of Marines who were on duty in the Nam regarding the Model 70 and its use there; notarized accounts would be excellent, unless you interview them in person. Such evidence will be much harder to come by as the years roll along due to their passing.
Good luck on your continuing sniper research.
James
seewin said
I can just about guarantee there were no 300 Win Mag model 70’s in that batch of 70’s listed in 1954. Winchester didn’t introduce the round until 1963. Perhaps they are referring to H&H mags?Steve
The Marines did have a handful of 300 H&H Model 70’s they purchased around 1938 I believe. I have the purchase orders for those from the Marine Corps.
On the 300 Win Mag. Maybe I’m understanding it wrong. I honestly am not familiar with anything past 30 Cal to be honest. lol This is what it says verbatim on the doc.
RTE-75012 Rifle, Sniper’s Match (300 Magnum Cartridge Heavy Barrel W/Telescopic sight base)
Telescope, Lyman, Super Target Spot, 12 power for 300 Magnum Rifle
jwm94 said
Steve,
It’s highly commendable of the work you have done regarding these issues.
In reference to the Model 70 and its use in Vietnam: Do you have any first hand accounts of Marines who were on duty in the Nam regarding the Model 70 and its use there; notarized accounts would be excellent, unless you interview them in person. Such evidence will be much harder to come by as the years roll along due to their passing.
Good luck on your continuing sniper research.
James
Thank you for the kind words sir.
I’ve been trying, but it’s hard to find them where they will talk about it. Most just want to be left alone, or don’t remember many details.
What I’m waiting for is those docs to be released to the Archives. We have the Marine docs till the late 50’s, but past that they are very sporadic. Once those docs are released, it’s sort of a waiting game at this point, it will detail it all most likely.
So far we have the Marine team and sniper docs from about 1909 to the late 1950’s. Not much in the books has matched up to what the official documents state.
In fact the worst one is the WWI WRA A5’s. Everyone has always assumed the WRA Marine mounts done in WWI for the Marines and the Army were Mann Niedner. This is 100% wrong.
Winchester produced their own version of a Marine mount and mounted 500 on rifles provided by the Marines, and 900 provided by the Army. There is not any difference between a WRA Marine mount USMC and Army rifle.
steven norton said
Thank you for the kind words sir.
I’ve been trying, but it’s hard to find them where they will talk about it. Most just want to be left alone, or don’t remember many details.
What I’m waiting for is those docs to be released to the Archives. We have the Marine docs till the late 50’s, but past that they are very sporadic. Once those docs are released, it’s sort of a waiting game at this point, it will detail it all most likely.
So far we have the Marine team and sniper docs from about 1909 to the late 1950’s. Not much in the books has matched up to what the official documents state.
In fact the worst one is the WWI WRA A5’s. Everyone has always assumed the WRA Marine mounts done in WWI for the Marines and the Army were Mann Niedner. This is 100% wrong.
Winchester produced their own version of a Marine mount and mounted 500 on rifles provided by the Marines, and 900 provided by the Army. There is not any difference between a WRA Marine mount USMC and Army rifle.
You’re welcome.
Reference personal interviews: have you tried contacting the USMC Scout Sniper Association, lately? They have their reunion once a year, and they are highly interested in such a subject IMO. You can probably get invited to this function, speak about your interest to this body, and could probably have a host of NAM era snipers on hand to field your questions, do so gladly. In fact, I’d be highly surprised if such were not the case.
I’d think, provided I understand you correctly, not everyone would assume that WRA A5 mounts would be Mann-Neidner mounts…but I might be misunderstanding you. Please explain.
James
Sorry, I sort of threw out some stuff without explaining. Usually most people confuse the Mann Niedner conversion as being done by WRA. But this was not the case. WRA never had anything to do with the Mann Niedner conversion or taper blocks in general. Actually WRA had their own version of bases called “Springfield Marine.” Which it seems they earned this name because they were first used by the Marines in 1917.
WRA used the Springfield Marine bases on 500 rifles provided by the Marines in 1917, and 900 rifles provided by Springfield Armory in 1918 for the Army. These were the main A5 snipers of the war, as the Mann Niedner conversion was much rarer.
In the documents the WRA Springfield MArine bases also earned the nicknames, “the Marine Corps Model and Marine Corps Mount.”
A lot of people over the years have assumed that the Winchester made Marine Mount were actually Mann Niedners, but it wasn’t. WRA just had their own version of a Marine mount, and it’s been a play at words that have confused a lot of people.
No problem! I was pretty sure this is where you were going, and the detail you provided makes for good education as well.
James
jwm94 said
Steve,Great information, Bud, thanks!
JWA oughta be able to help us out on this note as I recall he was searching for information regarding the .22’s.
James
Good information on the .22’s that corroborates that from the Winchester documents. I am sorry I cannot add anything to the center fire discussion.
The bulk of the “.22 rim fire” orders listed on the 1940-1942 ledgers were for the Model 75 Target rifle purchased by the Army for training (none by the USMC as far as I know). The early rifles were procured for the initial submittal (trials) and the subsequent rifles were furnished to fulfill at least 2 separate Government contracts for training rifles. Those orders for the Winchester 75 Target rifles are fairly well documented.
I will caution however to be careful during the research process to segregate Winchester “Orders” from Winchester “Sales” as the Winchester tables were prepared from different departments and DO NOT match exactly, especially during the exigency of war time. The Winchester “Sales” tables are the most informative (reflective) of the two.
This is a fascinating discussion and I wholeheartedly agree with jwm94 that you should contact the USMC Scout Sniper Association, they are good guys and should be able to help you set the record straight.
Best Regards and Semper Fi,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Bert H. said
Steve,
To the best of my knowledge, there were no other center fire Models that were manufactured or sold to the U.S. government during WW II.
Bert
To Bert and ALL
What about the Model 94 & 95? I know this was the case for WWI, but not any in WWII? Granted I know it might be somewhat unlikely as at this point in time lever-actions wouldn’t have been favorable for combat.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Maverick said
To Bert and ALL
What about the Model 94 & 95? I know this was the case for WWI, but not any in WWII? Granted I know it might be somewhat unlikely as at this point in time lever-actions wouldn’t have been favorable for combat.
Sincerely,
Maverick
Brady,
The Model 95 production ended in 1928, well before WW II began.
Production of the Model 94 was suspended in August of 1942 for the remainder of WW II, and for the preceding few months before production was suspended, the bulk of Model 94 Carbines still being assembled were for the Canadian PCMR order. There were not any known U.S. government orders for the Model 94 for WW II purposes.
In regards to WW I, Winchester did not halt production of any models that were being produced just prior to the war.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Jeff and Steve,
You all might have this, but here it is just in case you don’t. I looked in my old boot camp graduation book and found a picture of Marine recruits on the .22 firing line at Camp Matthews. The .22 they are shown with looks to be the same as the one pictured at the below link and is supposedly a WWII training rifle. We did not fire at the .22 range since they had just closed it down for good when my series went through.
Also, I have a couple of pictures around here showing Marine Barracks rifle team members firing the Winchester Model 75, but this was in 1964.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/941331480/USMC-marked-H-R-M65-Reising-22LR-WWII-training-rifle.htm
James
jwm94 said
Jeff and Steve,You all might have this, but here it is just in case you don’t. I looked in my old boot camp graduation book and found a picture of Marine recruits on the .22 firing line at Camp Matthews. The .22 they are shown with looks to be the same as the one pictured at the below link and is supposedly a WWII training rifle. We did not fire at the .22 range since they had just closed it down for good when my series went through.
Also, I have a couple of pictures around here showing Marine Barracks rifle team members firing the Winchester Model 75, but this was in 1964.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/941331480/USMC-marked-H-R-M65-Reising-22LR-WWII-training-rifle.htm
James
The ones you are seeing in your photos are the H&R 65. It was a .22 trainer that was similar to the Garand.
I have the counts somewhere and they had a little less than 4000 of them in 1946. The are great little shooters. 🙂
steven norton said
jwm94 said
Jeff and Steve,You all might have this, but here it is just in case you don’t. I looked in my old boot camp graduation book and found a picture of Marine recruits on the .22 firing line at Camp Matthews. The .22 they are shown with looks to be the same as the one pictured at the below link and is supposedly a WWII training rifle. We did not fire at the .22 range since they had just closed it down for good when my series went through.
Also, I have a couple of pictures around here showing Marine Barracks rifle team members firing the Winchester Model 75, but this was in 1964.
https://www.gunsamerica.com/941331480/USMC-marked-H-R-M65-Reising-22LR-WWII-training-rifle.htm
James
The ones you are seeing in your photos are the H&R 65. It was a .22 trainer that was similar to the Garand.
I have the counts somewhere and they had a little less than 4000 of them in 1946. The are great little shooters. 🙂
My platoon barely missed out on training with them and the .22 pistols in the Winter of 1960/61. 
jwm94 said
My platoon barely missed out on training with them and the .22 pistols in the Winter of 1960/61.
Oh that was an interesting time in Marine Corps history. They were getting almost all new weapon systems.
I would have loved to have served at that time.
By some morbid chance did you ever see any of the M1952 snipers? The M1C with the kollmorgen scope, or did you see any M1Ds?
I write for the Garand Journal and I always ask every Marine that served during this time if they saw anything. I’m also always looking for Armorers who served during the time, especially from Albany or Barstow if you know of any.
Semper Fi by the way!
steven norton said
Oh that was an interesting time in Marine Corps history. They were getting almost all new weapon systems.
I would have loved to have served at that time.
By some morbid chance did you ever see any of the M1952 snipers? The M1C with the kollmorgen scope, or did you see any M1Ds?
I write for the Garand Journal and I always ask every Marine that served during this time if they saw anything. I’m also always looking for Armorers who served during the time, especially from Albany or Barstow if you know of any.
Semper Fi by the way!
It was an interesting time. The Marines still had the M-1 in 60 and 61, and believe it or not, the old carbine sniper rifle with battery pack, carried by platoon radiomen in the 4th Marines on certain occasions, one being Operation Silver Sword, dubbed Soggy Sword, wherein an Okinawan bound battalion aggressed 3/4 on Maui. Some 4th Marine infantrymen tested a Canadian rifle as well as, I think, the Stoner. Jim Land was studying sniping at Puuloa RR and completed a like curriculum, nd from what I can gather, some Hawaiian Marine R & P members stationed at Puuloa took part in like training.
The following year of 1962, The 4th Marine Regiment’s Brigade Schools initiated a sniper school that was headed up by 2ndLt Willis. After the class graduated, the school was closed down and did not reopen until 1965, when Willie Skidmore, and a good friend of mine, also a Hawaiian R & P Team member was a student of the class. The same year, the 4th Marines turned in their M-1’s, BAR’s, and light machine guns, etc., and were issued the M-14s, M-60, and the Bloop. The Cuban blockade was right around the corner about the same time two companies of 3/4 Marines, the most travelled battalion in the Corps for the year, was sent to Guam for security due to the devastation caused by Super Typhoon Karen, and were back in Hawaii by December to end the year.
I cant say with any authority that I saw the MIC with the Kollmorgan scope. The sniper rifles we used were the M1C with the cone flash hider. We did not use the flash hiders, but turned them in after cracking open the wooden crates and issuing the scoped guns out to the school members.
Sorry, I cannot steer you to armorer that can help, even though I was stationed at Albany at a much later date.
Good luck with your writing and study and, hopefully, a publication complete with personal interviews with NAM snipers and other Marines in the know.
Semper Fi, Bud!
James
Added: Also, in early 1962, 3/4 was on Westpac and were the guerillas on Operation Tulungan, the largest SEATO op ever, when a battalion from 9th Marines from Oki, coming out of cold weather training at Mt Fugi aggressed them on Mindoro Island. They hit the beach with full transport packs in probably 100 degree heat, and as a result eleven of them died on their northerly march to their objective at Mamburo. A 12th casualty was due to a sea snake bite. This op was in preparation for the invasion of Vietnam, and 3/4 and one battalion of the 9th were the first in to RVN as I recall.
jwm94 said
steven norton said
Oh that was an interesting time in Marine Corps history. They were getting almost all new weapon systems.
I would have loved to have served at that time.
By some morbid chance did you ever see any of the M1952 snipers? The M1C with the kollmorgen scope, or did you see any M1Ds?
I write for the Garand Journal and I always ask every Marine that served during this time if they saw anything. I’m also always looking for Armorers who served during the time, especially from Albany or Barstow if you know of any.
Semper Fi by the way!
It was an interesting time. The Marines still had the M-1 in 60 and 61, and believe it or not, the old carbine sniper rifle with battery pack, carried by platoon radiomen in the 4th Marines on certain occasions, one being Operation Silver Sword, dubbed Soggy Sword, wherein an Okinawan bound battalion aggressed 3/4 on Maui. Some 4th Marine infantrymen tested a Canadian rifle as well as, I think, the Stoner. Jim Land was studying sniping at Puuloa RR and completed a like curriculum, nd from what I can gather, some Hawaiian Marine R & P members stationed at Puuloa took part in like training.
The following year of 1962, The 4th Marine Regiment’s Brigade Schools initiated a sniper school that was headed up by 2ndLt Willis. After the class graduated, the school was closed down and did not reopen until 1965, when Willie Skidmore, and a good friend of mine, also a Hawaiian R & P Team member was a student of the class. The same year, the 4th Marines turned in their M-1’s, BAR’s, and light machine guns, etc., and were issued the M-14s, M-60, and the Bloop. The Cuban blockade was right around the corner about the same time two companies of 3/4 Marines, the most travelled battalion in the Corps for the year, was sent to Guam for security due to the devastation caused by Super Typhoon Karen, and were back in Hawaii by December to end the year.
I cant say with any authority that I saw the MIC with the Kollmorgan scope. The sniper rifles we used were the M1C with the cone flash hider. We did not use the flash hiders, but turned them in after cracking open the wooden crates and issuing the scoped guns out to the school members.
Sorry, I cannot steer you to armorer that can help, even though I was stationed at Albany at a much later date.
Good luck with your writing and study and, hopefully, a publication complete with personal interviews with NAM snipers and other Marines in the know.
Semper Fi, Bud!
James
Added: Also, in early 1962, 3/4 was on Westpac and were the guerillas on Operation Tulungan, the largest SEATO op ever, when a battalion from 9th Marines from Oki, coming out of cold weather training at Mt Fugi aggressed them on Mindoro Island. They hit the beach with full transport packs in probably 100 degree heat, and as a result eleven of them died on their northerly march to their objective at Mamburo. A 12th casualty was due to a sea snake bite. This op was in preparation for the invasion of Vietnam, and 3/4 and one battalion of the 9th were the first in to RVN as I recall.
Jwm94 I sent you a pm.
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