BL and Steve:

Thanks for the comments.  Let me also reiterate that I do not collect military guns and am ignorant about them when compared to those people that do.  I have not even fired the model 70s that we had within the 4th Marine Regiment in Hawaii, since my T/O weapon was the M-1, including a version of the sniper, if you want to count my 4 week sniper course in Hawaii in 1962.  Prior to that the only other sniper weapon that I was assigned was the M-1 Carbine with infrared scope and battery pack.  That said, I had the pleasure of watching a lot of Marines fire the model 70 target guns in competition, and George Van Orden III was a certified pro at it when he was a 2nd LT.  He was the son of the Van Orden that conducted the study with Lloyd in the early 40s.  Although I engaged in competition shooting, it was limited, my last match was in 1971 Western Regionals at CamPen.  I’m thinking that England won that match, and if not, he came mighty close to doing so.  He was a few targets to my left when I was representing the MCRD San Diego team captained by Gunner Pietroforte. 

My tour in Vietnam began in early 1966 at Da Nang.  Between then and summer when I went back to Okinawa with BLT 3/3, word would get around about some sniper that had made a long-range-kill, or about some other sniper related subject.  The division made a call for school trained snipers about this time to extend their tour of duty back to 13 months and join HQ company as I recall, for the purpose of training snipers.   About this time, early summer, a friend and former team shooter of mine named Willie Skidmore visited me at Da Nang, and while sitting on a sandbagged bunker, one of the things we discussed was whether we were going to extend our tour of duty or go home at the end of our scheduled tour.  Willie was a SSgt. who was stationed with the 7th Engineers and had been in country for more than half his tour already, and I was pushing that mark, myself.  This, and the fact that our politicians had no intention of attempting to win that war were two major factors as to why I decided not to extend my tour date back to 13 months and answer the call.  I imagine that these two reasons had a similar effect on Willie since he finished hiss tour and went home to his family.  (I talked to Willie about a year ago.  He is in Kentucky and in his eighties.  I really respect that man.)  Not too long after this is when I met the young tall Marine with his model 70 scoped with the Unertl that I have previously mentioned, which brings me back to the discussion of the subject model 70 being auctioned on GB.

I defer to you two men (and references that are deemed reputable by most concerned parties),  and men like you that have a distinct interest in these type guns to sort out the details, and although its evident that men of this group cannot agree on this particular issue, I do believe that it will sort itself out one way or the other someday.  I wish that I could do more, but I can’t other than to go find some online references, or go check out the references the seller has delineated and offer them up, and this is something that any concerned person can do.

Steve, about my remark regarding the smooth stocked target guns being in country and used I cannot say for certain.  That remark was based primarily on what I believe to have been the situation, for many reasons that I see as legitimate.  For example, when the 4th Marines left Hawaii around ’65, I believe that they would have taken their sniper guns with them, or any other gun in their inventory like the rifle team model 70 target guns.  I have also seen documentation to this effect, but do not recall where.  On this note, one could make every effort to contact men in the know who are still with us today.  Men like Dave Willis, Jim Land, and some of the younger Marines that they trained.  Unfortunately, we have lost a lot of these icons, but there are some old timers left including some that are members of the USMC Scout-Sniper Association that met recently in Vegas during the shot show.  According to the e-mails I get each year, I think this is a regular affair for them.  Maybe we have a member that makes this event who might make it a point to seek them out next year and bend their ear on this subject and pass on their comments to us.

Have a great day, and thanks again for the comments.

James

Big Larry said
Semper Fi James and thank you for your service to our country. It would seem we were both Marines at the same time, although I was a Reservist Lance Corporal. (60-68). I was around Marines all my life. Dad was a M/Sgt E-7, old rank structure, who retired after 20. He was in (36-57). He was a pistol shooter and was on Col. Walter Walsh’s team. Walsh was one of the best shots ever in the USMC. Triple Distinguished. One of the best shots on the FBI as well.

Never know any famous Snipers, but I did know a Marine Raider from WW2. Boy, the stories that man could tell. I did get to meet some of the greatest pistol shots from all over. My Dad was no slouch either. He won the USMC Pistol championship in 1952, just before he went to Korea. With that gold medal, he got his Distinguished medal.   Thanks again for your service. Semper Fi. Big Larry

 

  

Same to you, Bud!  Yes, we Marined together…smile for awhile. 

Never was around Marines when I was young, except for a childhood hero named Brocato killed almost immediately after scaling the seawall at Inchon, Korea, from machine gun fire – a burst of fire from a burp gun hit him from the hips up.  The story about his death was told to me when I was fifteen, by another Marine that was charging forward with him when he was cut up.

Great picture and story about your Dad and Col. Walsh.  To hear old timers tell it, he was the best shot and I have no reason to doubt that.  When I was with Mike 3/4 in Hawaii, probably the summer of ’61, we were shown a training film about Walsh and his shooting.  Incredible stuff, man, incredible!

Have a great day!

James