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USMC mod.G7044C Win. WW ll Sniper Rifle
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February 18, 2018 - 5:22 pm
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This might have already been posted, but I did not see it if that was the case:

USMC mod.G7044C Win. WW ll Sniper Rifle

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/746094195

James

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February 19, 2018 - 1:05 am
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jwm94 said
This might have already been posted, but I did not see it if that was the case:

USMC mod.G7044C Win. WW ll Sniper Rifle

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/746094195

James  

Would anyone like a bridge to go with that rifle?   Big Larry

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February 19, 2018 - 1:59 am
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Plus a tunnel?

James

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February 19, 2018 - 1:22 pm
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Is anyone able to list the faults so we can learn something?

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February 19, 2018 - 3:10 pm
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CJS57 said
Is anyone able to list the faults so we can learn something?  

It looks good to me, but I’m not in the market for buying one, and to be clear I am not an expert in identifying one either…emphasis on the latter.  With this in mind, were I to be a bidder, I would have already made contact with any available experts so as to ensure its authenticity one way or anolther, just for starters.  That said, a brief visual examination of the pictures and description as written, and compared to the information listed in one of the many references the seller has identified, i.e. “U.S. Marine Corps Scout-Sniper WWII and Korea” by Peter Senich, the same appears to be a match to me…for whatever that’s worth.  The fact that Van Orden and Lloyd’s study included the subject rifle and scope, plus the fact they found these guns to be suitable for sniping, including the Corps having the model 70 in its inventory for decades later to be used mainly in their rifle programs, but also in combat for sniping in Vietnam, for one, certainly opens the door for like early 1940 guns to have been used by Marines during combat in WWII.  Maybe Big Larry, or another member here, would be so kind as to share their knowledge about the subject auction.

James 

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February 19, 2018 - 4:24 pm
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I don’t like the markings, the stock cartouche is from the 50’s, and I don’t recall any pics of Marine usage in WW2 of the M70. Viet Nam was the earliest and the Marines usually used the Sporting type M70 with a plain sporter stock. Gunny Hathcock used one.

Col. Brophy used a rifle like this in Korea, but it had a high powered civilian scope.

I collected Sniper rifles for some time a while back and never actually saw one like this. I had three USMC 1903A1/Unertl Sniper Riflers. One boxed in a REA numbered box, and fully papered. Maybe the only documented Marine/Unertl in existence.

Nope, still don’t like it.             Big LarryLaughLaughLaugh

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February 19, 2018 - 5:30 pm
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BL:  Thanks for the comments.  You have brought forward a legitimate note that would need to be checked out if I were to bid on this auction, and that is about the cartouche being from the 50s.  I take that to mean that the cartouche was not used on the 1940 era model 70s that Van Orden and Loyld used in the study of possible rifles to use for sniping purposes.   That would have to be checked out, and if you are right, we have all learned something that is of interest to some of us, like yourself.

In the Summer of ’66, before Jim Land started his tour in the Nam, the 3rd MarDiv at DaNang had already been involved with training snipers.  This time in the area of Hill 327.  I spoke with one of the graduates of the first class, and he was carrying the Model 70 with checkered sporting stock and 8X Unertl.  We had a rather lengthy conversation about his gun as well.  The 4th Marines from Hawaii had their smooth stocked target guns in country as well and were using them too.  They had the Lyman scopes.

Thanks again.  Your knowledge is “greatly” appreciated.

James

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February 19, 2018 - 11:33 pm
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That exact DOD cartouche was on my US Property marked 1956 Winchester M52-C from the CMP.

As far as I know, no Marine rifles were marked on the receiver like that. Looks like a drunk did it.

I doubt the USMC ever used an electric pencil on their rifles receivers. Just the bolts when they numbered them.

All my original M1903A1 Sipers had original cartouches on them. I have seen M70s with cartouches, but never defaced as this one.

The CMP put a bunch of M52-D’s out with marking just like this rifle.

The scope and Micarta can is worth in excess of $9,000, but I have my doubts about that rifle.

The scope bases are not Winchester or Unertl.    Still don’t like it but someone obviously does.

Another thing. No paperwork to substantiate its provenance.   Big Larry 

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February 20, 2018 - 1:57 am
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I am certainly no expert on M70 Sniper rifles, but I will comment on a couple of items. First, the I feel the “U.S. Property” marking is correct. Yes, it is sloppy, but they were done by hand with an electric etching pencil. I have one that is marked exactly the same, and I know exactly where it came from originally. It has been in our family for nearly 50 years and I know right where it was at prior. That said, my rifle is a 1950’s target, not a pre war. Although I cannot prove it, I seriously doubt this marking was put on a pre war sniper rifle. 

As far as scope blocks, they are correct Winchester early M70 target model scope blocks. The later examples were the same exact dimension, but did not have the detent hole in the LH side like the early versions. Model 52 target blocks went through the same changes.

I cannot vouch for the cartouche, but it certainly look’s awful fresh and sharp for a 70+ year old rifle. As far as scope and case, I would want someone very familiar with these to verify. There has been a cottage industry of late faking the scopes.  Also, I did not think the Marksman target stock was used on the Sniper rifles. I know there were probably hundreds of the conventional target models just like the subject rifle sold to the military for marksmanship programs, competition and as accuracy test rifles for military ammunition suppliers such as Lake City Army Ammunition Plant here in Independence, MO. My gut feeling is that it was most likely a competition rifle and not a sniper rifle. 

Steve

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February 20, 2018 - 7:24 pm
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BL and Steve:

Thanks for the comments.  Let me also reiterate that I do not collect military guns and am ignorant about them when compared to those people that do.  I have not even fired the model 70s that we had within the 4th Marine Regiment in Hawaii, since my T/O weapon was the M-1, including a version of the sniper, if you want to count my 4 week sniper course in Hawaii in 1962.  Prior to that the only other sniper weapon that I was assigned was the M-1 Carbine with infrared scope and battery pack.  That said, I had the pleasure of watching a lot of Marines fire the model 70 target guns in competition, and George Van Orden III was a certified pro at it when he was a 2nd LT.  He was the son of the Van Orden that conducted the study with Lloyd in the early 40s.  Although I engaged in competition shooting, it was limited, my last match was in 1971 Western Regionals at CamPen.  I’m thinking that England won that match, and if not, he came mighty close to doing so.  He was a few targets to my left when I was representing the MCRD San Diego team captained by Gunner Pietroforte. 

My tour in Vietnam began in early 1966 at Da Nang.  Between then and summer when I went back to Okinawa with BLT 3/3, word would get around about some sniper that had made a long-range-kill, or about some other sniper related subject.  The division made a call for school trained snipers about this time to extend their tour of duty back to 13 months and join HQ company as I recall, for the purpose of training snipers.   About this time, early summer, a friend and former team shooter of mine named Willie Skidmore visited me at Da Nang, and while sitting on a sandbagged bunker, one of the things we discussed was whether we were going to extend our tour of duty or go home at the end of our scheduled tour.  Willie was a SSgt. who was stationed with the 7th Engineers and had been in country for more than half his tour already, and I was pushing that mark, myself.  This, and the fact that our politicians had no intention of attempting to win that war were two major factors as to why I decided not to extend my tour date back to 13 months and answer the call.  I imagine that these two reasons had a similar effect on Willie since he finished hiss tour and went home to his family.  (I talked to Willie about a year ago.  He is in Kentucky and in his eighties.  I really respect that man.)  Not too long after this is when I met the young tall Marine with his model 70 scoped with the Unertl that I have previously mentioned, which brings me back to the discussion of the subject model 70 being auctioned on GB.

I defer to you two men (and references that are deemed reputable by most concerned parties),  and men like you that have a distinct interest in these type guns to sort out the details, and although its evident that men of this group cannot agree on this particular issue, I do believe that it will sort itself out one way or the other someday.  I wish that I could do more, but I can’t other than to go find some online references, or go check out the references the seller has delineated and offer them up, and this is something that any concerned person can do.

Steve, about my remark regarding the smooth stocked target guns being in country and used I cannot say for certain.  That remark was based primarily on what I believe to have been the situation, for many reasons that I see as legitimate.  For example, when the 4th Marines left Hawaii around ’65, I believe that they would have taken their sniper guns with them, or any other gun in their inventory like the rifle team model 70 target guns.  I have also seen documentation to this effect, but do not recall where.  On this note, one could make every effort to contact men in the know who are still with us today.  Men like Dave Willis, Jim Land, and some of the younger Marines that they trained.  Unfortunately, we have lost a lot of these icons, but there are some old timers left including some that are members of the USMC Scout-Sniper Association that met recently in Vegas during the shot show.  According to the e-mails I get each year, I think this is a regular affair for them.  Maybe we have a member that makes this event who might make it a point to seek them out next year and bend their ear on this subject and pass on their comments to us.

Have a great day, and thanks again for the comments.

James

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February 20, 2018 - 8:58 pm
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Semper Fi James and thank you for your service to our country. It would seem we were both Marines at the same time, although I was a Reservist Lance Corporal. (60-68). I was around Marines all my life. Dad was a M/Sgt E-7, old rank structure, who retired after 20. He was in (36-57). He was a pistol shooter and was on Col. Walter Walsh’s team. Walsh was one of the best shots ever in the USMC. Triple Distinguished. One of the best shots on the FBI as well.

Never know any famous Snipers, but I did know a Marine Raider from WW2. Boy, the stories that man could tell. I did get to meet some of the greatest pistol shots from all over. My Dad was no slouch either. He won the USMC Pistol championship in 1952, just before he went to Korea. With that gold medal, he got his Distinguished medal.   Thanks again for your service. Semper Fi. Big Larry

 

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February 21, 2018 - 6:45 pm
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Big Larry said
Semper Fi James and thank you for your service to our country. It would seem we were both Marines at the same time, although I was a Reservist Lance Corporal. (60-68). I was around Marines all my life. Dad was a M/Sgt E-7, old rank structure, who retired after 20. He was in (36-57). He was a pistol shooter and was on Col. Walter Walsh’s team. Walsh was one of the best shots ever in the USMC. Triple Distinguished. One of the best shots on the FBI as well.

Never know any famous Snipers, but I did know a Marine Raider from WW2. Boy, the stories that man could tell. I did get to meet some of the greatest pistol shots from all over. My Dad was no slouch either. He won the USMC Pistol championship in 1952, just before he went to Korea. With that gold medal, he got his Distinguished medal.   Thanks again for your service. Semper Fi. Big Larry

 

Dads-team.JPGImage Enlarger  

Same to you, Bud!  Yes, we Marined together…smile for awhile. 

Never was around Marines when I was young, except for a childhood hero named Brocato killed almost immediately after scaling the seawall at Inchon, Korea, from machine gun fire – a burst of fire from a burp gun hit him from the hips up.  The story about his death was told to me when I was fifteen, by another Marine that was charging forward with him when he was cut up.

Great picture and story about your Dad and Col. Walsh.  To hear old timers tell it, he was the best shot and I have no reason to doubt that.  When I was with Mike 3/4 in Hawaii, probably the summer of ’61, we were shown a training film about Walsh and his shooting.  Incredible stuff, man, incredible!

Have a great day!

James

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February 22, 2018 - 2:34 am
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jwm94 said

Big Larry said
Semper Fi James and thank you for your service to our country. It would seem we were both Marines at the same time, although I was a Reservist Lance Corporal. (60-68). I was around Marines all my life. Dad was a M/Sgt E-7, old rank structure, who retired after 20. He was in (36-57). He was a pistol shooter and was on Col. Walter Walsh’s team. Walsh was one of the best shots ever in the USMC. Triple Distinguished. One of the best shots on the FBI as well.

Never know any famous Snipers, but I did know a Marine Raider from WW2. Boy, the stories that man could tell. I did get to meet some of the greatest pistol shots from all over. My Dad was no slouch either. He won the USMC Pistol championship in 1952, just before he went to Korea. With that gold medal, he got his Distinguished medal.   Thanks again for your service. Semper Fi. Big Larry

 

Dads-team.JPGImage Enlarger  

Same to you, Bud!  Yes, we Marined together…smile for awhile. 

Never was around Marines when I was young, except for a childhood hero named Brocato killed almost immediately after scaling the seawall at Inchon, Korea, from machine gun fire – a burst of fire from a burp gun hit him from the hips up.  The story about his death was told to me when I was fifteen, by another Marine that was charging forward with him when he was cut up.

Great picture and story about your Dad and Col. Walsh.  To hear old timers tell it, he was the best shot and I have no reason to doubt that.  When I was with Mike 3/4 in Hawaii, probably the summer of ’61, we were shown a training film about Walsh and his shooting.  Incredible stuff, man, incredible!

Have a great day!

James  

Tough old Marine. He lived a few years into his 100’s. My buddy, a Police Chief in a small town near Birmingham, is good friends with Walsh Jr. He actually got to shoot some of the Cols. guns. The Cols. Daughter was no slouch either. A great pistol shot.   Semper Fi. Big Larry SDO Boot camp July 1961.

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March 3, 2018 - 1:52 am
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 Big Larry–

 

I have a USMC 03A1  sniper rifle purchased from Tom Tate (Serial #1526414) — I think that you inspected this rifle at some point and would like to talk to you about it.  Please email me ([email protected]). Thanks

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