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Unique Sights on my Model 1876, 3 rd. Model, .45-60, made 1878, Serial 46021
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Craig Battuello
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March 2, 2021 - 8:42 pm
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Rifle has a rear hood sight I have only seen on one other Winchester .44-40, it was pictured on Guns International, located in Montana, ten years ago. The hood has an inner circle / ring in it’s center which is supported by 3 brackets. This sight is attached to flat bar yardage scale which is attached to the top of the Octagon barrel. The scale reads at its last  elevated setting 500 yards. It is elevated by a sliding 1/2 “ Brass Square Bracket attached around the yardage scale bar. My .45-60 was restored by Bob Knapp more than ten years ago. He made new links,  pairs, some refer to as toggles or shell lifters for 1873 .44-40,  & 1876 .45-60. Also adding new link mounting pins, magazine tube and spring and screws to both rifles. Black powder was very corrosive to parts and rust mag spring and tube, making spring to weak to push shells forward to chamber. They both shoot like new now. 
The first time I shot the .45-60, at 100 yards, I put the front sight in the center of the inner circle. It shot 1 1/2 foot high. Non elevated. A friend loads my shells with smokeless powder with the equivalent original load 1100 FPS. With it 10#, heavy weight, 28 “ Octagon barrel it has very little felt recoil, the 300 gr. Lead wheel weights mushrooms to the size of quarter. Ron likes to experiment with loads. Loaded some a bit lighter for target loads. Not enough powder and they tumbled through the air making a whistle and left a 3/4 “ by 1/2 “ hole in the plywood. He also loaded some hunting loads for pigs. They shots well, but I decided to shoot  the rest of them in my Reproduction, Chaparral rifle. Ron was the Rifle and Pistol renewing certification for the Northern  Ca. CHP. And his passion is reload info for pistol and rifle shells, and is the only way I could have brought the rifles back to their glory. And fun for more generations to come. No shell were available after Bob fixed my Winchesters. Then I found Buffalo Arms in Sagle, Idaho. They cut down .45-70 cases, which are straight hill cases to specs. of the .46/60, and we were back in business, the most fun conversation piece I own, and shoot when friends are over.  My father bought it when it was 56 years old in 1928, he was 14. He paid $25 for it, what it sold for new, it came with a box of  Peters shells.  He shot it 7  seven times and the links on the right side broke. As everyone reading this knows,  a fault developed after production, the steel of the day was not strong enough to handle the recoil, and they were all going to eventually break. It was not until the 1886 Model, also designed By John Browning who was working along side King, redesigned his lever action, and with the new steel processes coming of age with abundant strength, and the addition of smokeless powder, came the the advancement to the powerful .45-70, a small canon. 
I just received my .45-60 back from Bob last week, I had to send it back to Maine. The recoil over the years had worn down the locking device for the magazine tube and recoil would let the tube walk forward. Bob said that was common with them and that was cured with the 86 Model. The dove tail slot under the barrel was to shallow, and the locking device would eventually wear enough to slip out. Bob fixed it better than new. Winchesterbob.com

Rifle arrived last week, courtesy of UPS, something extremely heavy was dropped on the corner of the box, smashing the gun case, breaking the corner off, with half the hinge missing putting a split in the lower part of the butt stock, from the butt plate/ shoulder plate forward  2 inches. All the way through to the other side. Winchester informed me none available for more than 75 years. Finding it difficult to get anywhere with the insurance claim, Bob put $5000 on it. We have found some one in Oregon to repair it, but sight unseen do not know if there was more internal breakage to the stock that can’t been seen until it is taken off. Bob told me that if anyone touches it, UPS will void the insurance coverage. Phone calls to UPS yesterday was useless. UPS web site said that Bob has to make the claim for me. The stock has to be taken off before a damage assessment can be made, and gun shy about shipping to the only place that can fix it. Not a project either of us were looking forward to, Bob said this now has happened to him so many times, after this happen to me, he is no longer going to receive Guns transported him. They will have to be hand delivered. Just in prior months he received a 76, with the top tang broken off the receiver, this was the last straw!

Anyone one with a 76 stock out there???

what I do with my free time see at 

Battuellovineyards.com

[email protected]

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March 2, 2021 - 11:37 pm
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Sorry to hear your 1876 was damaged in shipment.  There is a stock for sale on eBay now.  I don’t have a dog in the fight, just listing it because you asked.  Stocks off one gun won’t normally fit another without gaps, etc.  There was a lot of hand fitting that went into these old Winchester rifles.  

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=winchester+model+1876&_sop=10

From what I can tell, your 1876 SN 46021 was made in 1885.  

I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder

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March 3, 2021 - 12:12 am
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The one on ebay has a big split repair all the way through it.

When I shipped guns with fancy would I would remove the stock and package it separately and them installed a sawed off stock in the tangs to hold them. I cut plywood and taped to both sides of the hard gun case and then in the box. Then shipped next day air in the first part of the week so it didn’t sit over a weekend.

Bob

WACA Life Member---
NRA Life Member----
Cody Firearms member since 1991
Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

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March 3, 2021 - 12:29 am
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I hate to hear about such problems.  I used to ship antique rifles through UPS, but the problems I’ve had with damage, has been horrific.  I don’t  trust them any farther than I can throw there trucks.  For the past 15 years, I’ve  shipped every antique rifle through the post office.  My experience at least, has been  exceptional.  Buttstocks for the ’76 are not easy to find, but they are out there.  Who was the repair man in Oregon, that you mentioned?  There are some stock restorers out there that are awesome.  Sure would like to have seen pictures of the sight.

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March 3, 2021 - 12:49 am
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win4575 said
 I used to ship antique rifles through UPS, but the problems I’ve had with damage, has been horrific.  I don’t  trust them any farther than I can throw there trucks.  For the past 15 years, I’ve  shipped every antique rifle through the post office.  My experience at least, has been  exceptional.

The PO doesn’t have the terrific volume of UPS, nor does it handle cast iron stoves & all the other heavy freight shipped by UPS.  FedEx may be somewhat better than UPS, but still, not as safe as the PO.  Amazes me that people still ship guns by UPS at all–these horror stories go back 30 yrs or more.  Likewise, the outrageous stories of UPS denying or impeding insurance reimbursement have been told many times.  A more negligent & arrogant company to do business with is hard to imagine.

Even when shipping by USPS, however, it’s always safer to remove buttstock.

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March 3, 2021 - 2:50 am
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 We have reached a point in time that all forms of shipping are operating beyond capacity. Whether it’s Amazon taking advantage of the USPS cheap rates or the covid crowd ordering everything on line, the shippers are overloaded. All shipping services are not what they were a year ago. I don’t mind shipping a new replaceable idem, with insurance it’s just a delay getting your idem. With collectables a lost idem is not replaceable and a damaged idem is not repairable.

 Craig’s problem is any collectors nightmare, you own a gun that now after a repair is no longer original. Your eye is always drawn to the repair, and as a collector you lose interest. T/R 

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March 3, 2021 - 3:25 am
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Lately, the way things are going, a long arm being shipped and impacted by an inert object, the long arm is a lever and the inert object is a fulcrum: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lever

Certainly, any object can be considered a lever, and any inert object is a fulcrum, but the longer the lever, the greater the damage caused by the two ends of the lever bending or shearing at the fulcrum, such as a traumatic fracture somewhat near the middle of the firearm at a weaker point, such as the grip of the stock.

It makes one pause when considering the shipment of firearms and makes the shipment of more compact firearms less of a risk.  Of course, any object can get crushed or run over.

This is a major reason why my collecting interests have changed.  At one time, I had nothing but long arms.  Now, they are a small fraction of what I collect.  Colts and Smith & Wesson’s, because of this principle, seem to be less of a risk, plus it costs less to ship them, and they take up less space in the safe.

Of course, this is the Winchester forum, and Winchesters are primarily long arms, but the subject matter of this thread should make one pause…

It’s unfortunate that UPS, especially, has a tendency to abuse packages—it seems that if they suspect a firearm is within, the more harsh the treatment of the package.  It strongly suggests that UPS is inherently anti 2A, or at least those employed by them are.

Something to at least think about.  Also, when I think of UPS, I think of more ground delivery, industrial, freight-type objects, these being more likely to crush adjacent packages, whereas USPS, not nearly as much, and Fed-Ex being lighter objects where speed is the primary concern.

Having said that, I’ve shipped all three with no ill effects, knock on wood.  I prefer USPS, Registered Priority Mail.  Despite having Priority  in the name, it isn’t exactly Priority, but it “seems” to be the best way.

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March 3, 2021 - 4:53 am
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 The USPS has not taken steps to increase their infrastructure. They currently don’t have the space to store what they ship, so it has to stay in motion. If you watch the tracking on your package you will see it sent to locations not necessarily in a the same direction as the destination. If a USPS location is to full for your package it is sent else where, adding time, miles, and handling. It does arrive, most of the time late and handled more than usual. USPS is not what it once was. T/R

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March 3, 2021 - 2:29 pm
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TR said
 The USPS has not taken steps to increase their infrastructure. They currently don’t have the space to store what they ship, so it has to stay in motion. If you watch the tracking on your package you will see it sent to locations not necessarily in a the same direction as the destination. If a USPS location is to full for your package it is sent else where, adding time, miles, and handling. It does arrive, most of the time late and handled more than usual. USPS is not what it once was. T/R  

True, but that’s because Congress has for many yrs been starving it of operating funds to force it to become “self-supporting.”  What other public services are self-supporting?  Police?  Fire Dept.?  Then of course, the postal union has only to ask & the fed govt gives. But despite these shortcomings, it’s a better alternative than UPS.

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March 3, 2021 - 3:36 pm
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 Clarence, I agree, it is a better alternative than Fed-Ex or UPS. At this point in time I will not ship any rare long gun with condition. The collector in me does not want what happen to Craig, happen to me. T/R

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March 3, 2021 - 4:37 pm
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I agree with TR’s assessment of the USPS infrastructure.  A prime example just happened in my business.  I ship all of my leather gear via USPS Priority Mail with very little problem in the past 20 years and I ship a lot of gear.  However, on the 23rd of February I sent out another batch of nine packages.  Some as close as Arizona and others as far away as up-state New York.  We keep track of the route and delivery dates on each address we ship to.  Of this last batch, three of these orders have still not been delivered.  In fact, one that was sent to an address in Savannah, Georgia has traveled back and forth across the country for the past week.  It was in fact in Savannah at one point and then sent back to L.A.  As of this morning, it is back in Savannah.  Prime example of the gov’t trying to run a business.  They are all clueless. 

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March 3, 2021 - 5:13 pm
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  The USPS is operating to cheap, not allowing it’s private sector competitors to compete fairly and reinvest profits in their infrastructure. We are in for a continued decline in shipping quality until USPS makes major changes in it’s price structure. Do you think the Government can operate a business as cheap as the private sector? T/R

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March 3, 2021 - 6:58 pm
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TR said
  The USPS is operating to cheap, not allowing it’s private sector competitors to compete fairly and reinvest profits in their infrastructure. We are in for a continued decline in shipping quality until USPS makes major changes in it’s price structure. Do you think the Government can operate a business as cheap as the private sector? T/R  

Hate to say it, but main promoters of making USPS “pay its own way” by cutting gov’t subsidies have been Repubs, some of whom even promoted the idea of turning mail handling over to private companies like UPS.

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March 4, 2021 - 1:13 am
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I’ve  heard that for years.  Wish they would sh#& or get off the pot and turn the PO  over to the private sector.  I’ll bet efficiency  would have a dramatic  effect  within six  months. 

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March 4, 2021 - 1:42 am
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win4575 said
I’ve  heard that for years.  Wish they would sh#& or get off the pot and turn the PO  over to the private sector.  I’ll bet efficiency  would have a dramatic  effect  within six  months.   

The first of those effects would be the closing of hundreds of small town POs like mine, because they aren’t profitable.  Most of them around here have already had their hours reduced, & while each in the past had its own postmaster, now they’re staffed by cheaper rotating clerks who never stay long enough to learn the people in their community.  That’s inevitable when the “bottom line” is made more important than public service.

The next effect would be an increase in rates.  Every single time I’ve compared shipping rates between USPS & UPS, the latter has always been higher. 

Do you also believe the private sector should take over fire & police protection?  Or if not take over, should the fire dept. present you with a bill if you call them to your property?  Or if the police recover your stolen property, go looking for your lost child, etc., should you be charged for their time & trouble? 

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March 4, 2021 - 5:28 am
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I realize that many smaller post offices may disappear under private ownership.  I live in an unincorporated town of around 750 people.  Maybe our post office would disappear also.  City, county and state law enforcement, as well as fire departments, have nothing to do with this topic, since they are not run by the federal  government.  The United States Postal Service is a federally run business, selling goods and services to the general  public.

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March 4, 2021 - 1:59 pm
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win4575 said
I realize that many smaller post offices may disappear under private ownership.  I live in an unincorporated town of around 750 people.  Maybe our post office would disappear also.  City, county and state law enforcement, as well as fire departments, have nothing to do with this topic, since they are not run by the federal  government.  The United States Postal Service is a federally run business, selling goods and services to the general  public.  

Making it a “business,” rather than a basic public service as it is in every other civilized country in the world, is exactly what has ruined our postal system!  Whether a public service is provided by the local or federal gov’t is not the critical point–all public services have to be subsidized by taxpayers.

Why, if postal service is required to turn a profit, is it unreasonable, by the same logic, to expect citizens who make demands on fire & police services to reimburse the gov’t, whether local or federal, for those services?  I’ve never in my life had to call for help from a cop or fireman, but all my life I’ve paid taxes to support those services.  Should I demand a refund?

And there’s no “maybe” about it regarding your own PO–it will go under if Congress doesn’t return postal service to what it should be–a basic public service exactly like fire & police protection. 

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