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I have an 1894 src 30wfc manuf in 1903 (sn 226xxx) Inscribed on the right side of the receiver is
U.S. Indian Police
TAHLEQUAH INDIAN TERRITORY Followed by a #4 on the lower side of the receiver above the trigger. That was the capitol of the Cherokee nations following the trail of tears in Oklahoma. Does anyone know if this would have been a gov. order or ordered by the territory? Inscription at winchester or after? the cherokee were proud of their language and often inscribed anything in their own alphabet. I am waiting on a Cody letter to see what if any info I can glean there. Any recommendations as to where else to research? Rifle ended up in an estate in Fla. (Seminole were in the same area of Oklahoma at the time). Thanks for any info
Not sure if you would find anything at the Department of Interior or the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Would to suggest to start locally with a historian or look for any references in the local newspapers from the period (Tahlequah Arrow). There appears to be a lot out there on the Tahlequah Indian Territory on the interweb. The 1904 date for the carbine places it subsequent to the timeline when OK Indian police powers were taken over by the US Govt in 1898 with the exception of the Seminoles, according to the article below.
http://lestweforget.hamptonu.edu/page.cfm?uuid=9FEC4BE4-0CFE-0ACA-15B57C52CED4B765
Without anything substantive leading to provenance I tend to view all these as suspect. However, the stamping on the carbine looks fairly aged and well executed.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
I am of the opinion that the marking on the receiver frame was added after it left the Winchester factory.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
1892takedown said
Without anything substantive leading to provenance I tend to view all these as suspect. However, the stamping on the carbine looks fairly aged and well executed.
Doesn’t look like the imprint of a roll-die to me–more like what I’ve seen of laser-cutting, which can’t produce sharp corners, as far as I know.
For sure post factory.
Originally thought it was done with stamp dies because of the halo and it looked like the deepest impressions or imprint profile looked “u” shaped. But after blowing up the photo and looking at the letters E, A, I, N, and R there are some variations between each letter and some that are not. If thats the case then it was likely not a die. Dont know.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
1892takedown said
Originally thought it was done with stamp dies because of the halo and it looked like the deepest impressions or imprint profile looked “u” shaped. But after blowing up the photo and looking at the letters E, A, I, N, and R there are some variations between each letter and some that are not. If thats the case then it was likely not a die. Dont know.
Look at that long scratch that begins in the first “R” in “territory”–the letters appear to be superimposed on top of it.
Thank you much, Ive read the article you cite, (Quote is my fav Billy currington song as well 🙂 ) I have a friend that has a relative that still lives on the res there and is an elder and has offered to research. Ill let you know what I find out- Thanks for your time and input
clarence said
1892takedown said
Originally thought it was done with stamp dies because of the halo and it looked like the deepest impressions or imprint profile looked “u” shaped. But after blowing up the photo and looking at the letters E, A, I, N, and R there are some variations between each letter and some that are not. If thats the case then it was likely not a die. Dont know.
Look at that long scratch that begins in the first “R” in “territory”–the letters appear to be superimposed on top of it.
I took that to be a forge mark like you commonly see on receivers, this one extends across the receiver through the bottom edge of the guide screw and beyond, unless Im looking at something different than your describing.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
1892takedown said
I took that to be a forge mark like you commonly see on receivers, this one extends across the receiver through the bottom edge of the guide screw and beyond, unless Im looking at something different than your describing.
You’re right, as I see by enlarging this photo again, which makes the lettering look even cruder. Well, at least the faker picked out a beater to do his faking on, rather than a nice, clean gun.
Better close photo
It is a forging mark if you look closely it does not appear on the screw but on either side of the hole and is not a scratch. Also the lettering is on top of the mark. Also it starts at the T or before not the 2nd R
Looking at the pic you added it is pretty clear it was not a stamped, otherwise the letter groups would all look the same. If you look at each of the matching letters there are variances that lead me to believe they were written or inscribed by hand or using some type of stencil. Not familiar enough to identify the means used to do the lettering. Can just tell you from past experience, and as I noted previously, whenever I see these “Indian” rifles they are always suspect with regard to originality in terms of provenance.
Here is one I had 10 or more years ago that I either bought cheap or was part of a trade. It was manufactured in 1904. Didnt find out a whole lot about it with limited research. While neat and all, maybe original embellishment, maybe not, I was glad to see it go when it did to someone who had more interest in that kind of thing.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
My very first impression was the marking was too well done and too straight with no wear to the letters. It would be very difficult to stamp one letter at a time and keep it this straight and the letter to such an even depth. A roll die would have been expensive and require tools to be used plus a fixture to hold the gun or receiver.
THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!
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