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This will definitely sell for big bucks. That’s not even debatable. To an individual who has more dollars than sense or to a dealer who sells to individuals who have more dollars than sense.
I wonder just how many dealers know full well what their customer base is and know more than they let on (are smarter than you think) just to make a sale. I would expect that number to be quite large.
I have never bid or even attended a live gun auction. All my experience both as buyer and seller has been in online auctions at two Websites, GB and what was once called Auction Arms. And that experience has been occasional, occurring over about the last 25 years but, at a guess, no more than a mean of 3 or 4 transactions a year, none at all in some years. More buying in early years and more selling in later years, mostly as my shooting and collecting interests have changed. Or to acknowledge /mistakes.
It didn’t take long to realize the best way to lose the least money when selling, was to photograph it thoroughly, write it up interestingly, and start it for a penny, for as long an auction as allowed. You can still take a bath but your odds are better.
To sum up what little wisdom I’ve learned, mostly painfully:
1. Don’t bid on something you don’t understand.
2. “Know your seller” at least by reputation. [ the incarcerated, low-level drug dealer’s lament.]
3. As someone has already said, “Buy the gun, not the story.”
4. An auction is a bad place to find out who you are.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
steve004 said
oldcrankyyankee said
I think it has been cleaned well. There seems to be the appearance of a light surface rust on the back of the butt plate and some silvering along the top like it had rust removed previously. There also appears to be a cleaned spot of corrosion on right barrel flat couple inches ahead of forearm cap. Right side of receiver looks like it has several spots of pitting, particularly by the loading gate screw. Also some dings in the right side of stock. I don’t pretend to be anything of expert here, just pointing out what I am seeing. Of course I am bias to this rifle based on what it is.
Tom – but it is a .45-90! And did you see all those cartridges with it!
Your comments about light surface rust and perhaps some rust being previously removed, adds some credence to the possibility it hasn’t been completely redone. But, not enough credence for me
Steve, you have know that I am drooling over this gun. What a way to go out in the collecting world. The cartridges would be great, but as I have read the story an appraiser removed the black powder ” out of caution” so to me they are basically junk. Although I do like to try to be positive of the situation here. I am not convinced the gun has been thru a restorers hands, as I pointed out about the pitting. I would also add that like I mentioned earlier about the nails shown and the plethora of nail holes in the crate, which I believe is real, has been opened more times the my beer fridge. So my feeling is the story of it untouched for the number of years stated is pure BS. But I am no expert and certainly not confident enough to sell off my entire collection of 86’s that I know are legit to go after this one gun. I will agree with others that a dealer / mover will buy this gun. A couple names come to mind quickly, one has left the building though. I guarantee that if this gun turns out not be legit we will see this gun again and again and again! Sorry to see this as it should be a once in a life time find, not a controversy. Lets hope it’s real!
Also take note of the 1974 appraised value then the value based on inflation today $$$ as compared to the low auction estimate. This why high rollers are buying.
Jeremy P said
Yeah, I noticed the schmoo around the receiver to barrel connection (from use or packing grease that was cleaned off?) and thought the same things about the leather condition (too good) and the salt-air environment of the coast, and the nails. It damn sure ain’t “new in box”…
That description alone wore me out reading it, talk about a bunch of added BS that doesn’t prove anything.
Jeremy –
You’re a better man than me. I will confess I didn’t read every word of the description – I did some skimming 
I suspect however, that a thorough read of the description would not change my opinion on the originality.
Jeremy P said
Yeah, I noticed the schmoo around the receiver to barrel connection (from use or packing grease that was cleaned off?) and thought the same things about the leather condition (too good) and the salt-air environment of the coast, and the nails. It damn sure ain’t “new in box”…
That description alone wore me out reading it, talk about a bunch of added BS that doesn’t prove anything.
You noticed ” the schmoo”, did you notice the pitting and rust. This schmoo tells me it was cleaned a lot and taken care of thru the years. To me the story is not lining up with the gun as far as the attic find of the 20 century. that’s what is bothering me. If this gun was up for auction as it is With out the accoutrements there would be very little discussion about. Buy the gun not the story, I can make one up about every 86 I own. Therefore I propose this gun is WAY over priced for what it is.
steve004 said
I suspect however, that a thorough read of the description would not change my opinion on the originality.
It ought, however, to confirm your opinion of the judgement, expertise, & integrity of RIA.
The question is, WHY would RIA go to great trouble and effort to write these purely fabricated stories, completely made up FICTION? I guess because many of their clientele buy the story and not the gun, the lengthier the drivel is that is written, the deeper they reach in their pockets.
Remember, buy the gun, not the story. This story doesn’t add up well.
clarence said
steve004 said
I suspect however, that a thorough read of the description would not change my opinion on the originality.
It ought, however, to confirm your opinion of the judgement, expertise, & integrity of RIA.
The word “auctioneer” actually derives from an ancient Kabyle pejorative meaning “one who has the morals of a Casbah carpet merchant.”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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This reminds me of the first rule of sitting in on a back room poker game. If you don’t know who the sucker is, it’s probably you!
Mike
The question is, WHY would RIA go to great trouble and effort to write these purely fabricated stories, completely made up FICTION? mrcvs said
Why, because it impresses rich fools, as well as distracting from a hard look at the gun. RI has cultivated this art form to the acme of perfection, but less elaborate expressions continually appear on GB, wherein the seller bloviates at length about the history of that particular model, fundamental facts that the rankest neophyte would know, but which, again, distracts from a rigorous examination of the gun itself.
The question as to why an auction would go to these lengths to write the drivel you all speak of is really quite simple. They work for the seller! Not sure why we continually talk about this. They receive a commission to sell, just like any real-estate agent does when you hire them to sell your homestead. They also make money on the other end from the buyer, plain English, more it sells for the better their bottom line. My guess is if anyone of decieded to part ways with our guns we would want all we could get for them. I have heard plenty of chatter from other members how they were sending guns to what ever auction house, you fill in the name blank here, based on the fact it will be the best bang for your buck. Thats why I just send my entire Colt collection to an auction house, best exposure and best chance for the most money. My advice is if you question the gun don’t buy it.
oldcrankyyankee said
The question as to why an auction would go to these lengths to write the drivel you all speak of is really quite simple. They work for the seller! Not sure why we continually talk about this.
Maybe it’s because we entertain a naive (but quite mistaken!) assumption that “respectable” gun sellers would not collaborate in promoting a fraud. Wishful thinking, of course. You might say it “hurts our feelings” when we see such brazen dissimulation.
November 7, 2015
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clarence said
oldcrankyyankee said
The question as to why an auction would go to these lengths to write the drivel you all speak of is really quite simple. They work for the seller! Not sure why we continually talk about this.
Maybe it’s because we entertain a naive (but quite mistaken!) assumption that “respectable” gun sellers would not collaborate in promoting a fraud. Wishful thinking, of course. You might say it “hurts our feelings” when we see such brazen dissimulation.
Clarence, Tom, et al;
Maybe it’s time we recognize, if not embrace, the fantasy element of the collector mindset. We know our 1920 vintage 1873 did not “win the West”. A few years back I bought an old “Colt” padlock that was supposedly used to secure factory vaults. I knew better, but it looks good on my mantel. Most folks could care less! I’m not going to pay the price of a new pickup to buy a fantasy item but I know someone will. Not every collector has done his research, not every wino appreciates the best our vineyards have to offer. But they are all consumers.
Mike
clarence said
The question is, WHY would RIA go to great trouble and effort to write these purely fabricated stories, completely made up FICTION? mrcvs said
Why, because it impresses rich fools, as well as distracting from a hard look at the gun. RI has cultivated this art form to the acme of perfection, but less elaborate expressions continually appear on GB, wherein the seller bloviates at length about the history of that particular model, fundamental facts that the rankest neophyte would know, but which, again, distracts from a rigorous examination of the gun itself.
Yes, that’s what I basically said. I created my question and answered it. To create a story into which someone with more money than sense buys the story and not the gun.
You have to be so very careful with Winchesters these days—especially the high end ones. They are increasingly not what they seem to be.
Today, it was in the mid 90s with oppressive humidity. Most attics in the northeast were well over 100 deg F. And it was very humid today. If that gun was in an attic in Massachusetts for 87 years and there were only 5 days like today annually, that’s over a year in such conditions. Hardly an environment for the preservation of fine objects.
More likely in the northeast might be extreme cold conditions, cycling to warm days many times a winter. A few days where a firearm is chilled and then warned rapidly in an attic would create condensation, especially in or on a leather scabbard.
So, this disproves the story. I’m just not convinced how original this rifle really is to begin with, if original at all?
I am pretty new to this forum and have read with interest this discussion. You will see over time I listen much more than I talk. I agree this is a difficult story to believe and understand we all have our own experiences and expertise that help form our opinions. Many have come close to calling this an outright fraud and maybe it is. I think those are strong words without proof and hope it is not the case. I do not have enough expertise to make an argument either way so I won’t try. One relevant experience I will share is that in the late 60’s my dad put about 30 guns in wooden crates in the attic of our home with no heat etc. He left them there , screwed shut for 40 years. Regular oil wipe down before put away, nothing else and thrown in with paper packing.They were left alone and never opened once, a stones throw from lake Michigan with nasty winters and humid summers and when unpacked they were perfect. Not a rust blem on anything. Maybe a wood crate breathes slowly? Maybe there was never condensation, I don’t know. All I know is you would be shocked at how lucky he was, and me, because I now own several of them. Food for thought.
November 7, 2015
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I recently wrote an article for the TGCA Collector about a Model 1841 rifle that was buried in a S.Texas field for about 50 years in an unknown wrapper. Even though this rifle was likely buried by a member of the 4th Texas Cavalry I feel confident it was NOT buried in a leather scabbard. A leather scabbard was meant for transporting a carbine (and maybe a rifle) on horseback, not for long term storage!
Mike
Mike, I’d have to go back and reread the lengthy auction description to be certain but what I seem to recall is that a scabbard was included in the sale, not necessarily that the gun was stored in the scabbard. Having seen what leather can do to steel in remarkably short time, I question whether the scabbard just being packed in the same crate wouldn’t have caused trouble over such an extended period of closed storage.
If the auction description actually represents that the rifle lay stored in a leather scabbard for all those years— well, that stuff really makes the corn grow and the auction company should be careful.
There’s a difference in law between “puffery” and fraud, according to most versions of the Uniform Commercial Code adopted by the different States. Sometimes the line is thin but a deliberate misstatement of a material fact, known by the speaker to have been false at the time made, and made with the intent to gain something of value…… is not puffery.
There may be, probably is, a weasel hole in 4 point type somewhere that the auction firm is an innocent lamb with no knowledge of the truth of a wicked owner’s representations and so don’t warrant what we’ve published is true, so go sue the Wind tra la.
A large firm with decades of experience might find such boilerplate disclaimers a thin reed to cling to if it be shown they had to have known…
A hundred fifty large down the drain, trebled as damages, plus counsel fees, would be large enough to engage the attention of some very skilled business tort lawyers. For the auction firm’s sake, let us hope they’ve done their due diligence.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
Mike, I’d have to go back and reread the lengthy auction description to be certain but what I seem to recall is that a scabbard was included in the sale, not necessarily that the gun was stored in the scabbard. Having seen what leather can do to steel in remarkably short time, I question whether the scabbard just being packed in the same crate wouldn’t have caused trouble over such an extended period of closed storage.If the auction description actually represents that the rifle lay stored in a leather scabbard for all those years— well, that stuff really makes the corn grow and the auction company should be careful.
There’s a difference in law between “puffery” and fraud, according to most versions of the Uniform Commercial Code adopted by the different States. Sometimes the line is thin but a deliberate misstatement of a material fact, known by the speaker to have been false at the time made, and made with the intent to gain something of value…… is not puffery.
There may be, probably is, a weasel hole in 4 point type somewhere that the auction firm is an innocent lamb with no knowledge of the truth of a wicked owner’s representations and so don’t warrant what we’ve published is true, so go sue the Wind tra la.
A large firm with decades of experience might find such boilerplate disclaimers a thin reed to cling to if it be shown they had to have known…
A hundred fifty large down the drain, trebled as damages, plus counsel fees, would be large enough to engage the attention of some very skilled business tort lawyers. For the auction firm’s sake, let us hope they’ve done their due diligence.
According to the description, it was in a scabbard for 87 years.
“When the lid was finally removed, 87 years after being delivered new from the factory, the crate exposed a Winchester Model 1886 rifle in a lightly tooled leather scabbard, so its true beauty remained hidden a few moments longer until it was unholstered.”
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