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oldcrankyyankee said
My two cents, I read some where a long time ago that Calvary saddles were equipped with a spring steel hook device that the saddle ring would clip into. Therefore holding the rifle in a manner of a scabbard but more easily and quickly accessed.
But I don’t think they were hooking that device on to lever action carbines?
steve004 said
oldcrankyyankee said
My two cents, I read some where a long time ago that Calvary saddles were equipped with a spring steel hook device that the saddle ring would clip into. Therefore holding the rifle in a manner of a scabbard but more easily and quickly accessed.
But I don’t think they were hooking that device on to lever action carbines?
Probably not, but is it just a carry over from the Sharps and Spencers. Like I said just something I remembered from a long time ago.
oldcrankyyankee said
Probably not, but is it just a carry over from the Sharps and Spencers. Like I said just something I remembered from a long time ago.
I sure don’t claim to be a cavalry expert, but I’ve never heard of such a hook, although the Army was continually experimenting with new eqpt. The only function of the ring on the service carbines was to connect to the heavy snap-ring on the sling. But the service carbine ring was not attached directly to the rcvr, it was attached to a BAR about 2 in long, so it could slide back & forth. There’s not really any resemblance between the service carbine rig & rings used on commercial carbines.
As a follow on to my earlier post on this topic by the mid-1880’s the U.S. Army had introduced a carbine boot that supported the weight of the gun and protected the breech portion. The boot did not require the carbine be linked to the shoulder sling. In fact, having it linked was a safety issue. One doesn’t want to be tied to a carbine that is essentially attached to the saddle, in case the rider is thrown or pulled off the horse.
This is yours truly (circa 1991) in 1885 issue horse gear and equipment as used during the Geronimo campaign and on into the turn of the century. The carbine boot replaced the earlier thimble. There is no snap to retain the carbine in place. It’s weight in the boot does the job.
The army seemed to think it important that the carbine was always close by to the soldier. That’s the idea behind the shoulder sling and sling ring on the carbine. Since the army thought it important, commercial manufacturers such as Sharps and Winchester, put sling rings on their carbines in hopes of army contracts.
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
I may be misinformed, this happens quite often it seems. I was told the original rings and straps allowed the weapon to be fired and then dropped, if necessary, without being lost or separated from the soldier. This also allowed the revolver to be used in close quarters without loosing the carbine Simply put, the weapon was semi-permanently attached to the soldier. RDB
Interesting history. I was thinking about how Marlin, Savage, Burgess and Whitney-Kennedy all put rings on their carbines. They also all made musket rifles – a sign they were interested in military contracts as well.
Ah, Michael , I can understand why You’re single
. I know of two groups of people who actually used a saddle ring, or a lash on their guns, one being the trappers, in Canada anyways. When the hand gun registry came into effect in 1935 some of them quit carrying their hand guns and started carrying cut off long guns or short, (trapper) s.r.c.’s. My father-in -law was a farmer who ran a trapline in the winter, I still have the .32 Hopkins and Allen He used to carry and My nephew has the old , cut off 1890 with hole through the stock for lash, that He used to carry on a hook on His belt. The East Coast seal hunters carried Their guns in a similar manner, a lot of them being cut off bbl,s with the stocks being cut also, to accomodate one handed use. A friend of mine has ,I think the roughest gun I ever seen , a 1892 Win 15″ trapper in 44-40,it belonged to a Sealer in Labrador. That gun was carved and rusted to unbeliveable configuration, but still functional. So yes, some folks did actually use the saddle ring.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
I found a couple of original photos of Indian wars era soldiers that show how carbines were carried. These were posed photos but they illustrate typical uniforms and equipment during the mid-1880’s and later.
A soldier standing at parade rest with with saber and Springfield “trapdoor” carbine using the shoulder sling and ring.
A soldier mounted on his horse with the carbine in the 1880’s issue boot. Note he is not wearing the shoulder sling.
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
Bill Hockett said
As a follow on to my earlier post on this topic by the mid-1880’s the U.S. Army had introduced a carbine boot that supported the weight of the gun and protected the breech portion. The boot did not require the carbine be linked to the shoulder sling. In fact, having it linked was a safety issue. One doesn’t want to be tied to a carbine that is essentially attached to the saddle, in case the rider is thrown or pulled off the horse.
Basically it’s an open-ended saddle scabbard. About twice as long as the CW boot I had. But Roger’s point about the sling’s use to prevent dropping the carbine was previously, I think, a military consideration. It’s a system going back to the earliest flintlock cavalry carbines.
This topic reminds me of a post I had done previously about how they carried SRCs. Way back in 2015!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-rifles/how-were-they-carried/
Hope others find it interesting as well.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
November 7, 2015
Online
From the wear patterns we see on many early Winchesters it seems to me some were carried across the rider’s legs against the saddle horn.
Mike
TXGunNut said
From the wear patterns we see on many early Winchesters it seems to me some were carried across the rider’s legs against the saddle horn.
We don’t have to guess–it’s shown clearly in paintings by Russell & Remington. (Surely you’ve seen them many times at the Amon Carter Museum, Mike). I have such a one; wore out one brl & now on its second. Not as precarious as it might seem, when used with the leather strap attached to the saddle horn as shown in such artwork. Now maybe such riders would have preferred a store-bought saddle scabbard, but the strap, or loop, could be made out of any piece of scrap leather, such as an old piece of cinch or girth strap.
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