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I do not have an original stud. Maybe I should look for one on Ebay, but who is to say it would be original. I read the article on timing screws and it talks about doing some things that do not pertain here. To me it seems that the only way to get the stud aligned properly is to remove small amounts of metal from the bottom of the stud and keep trying it to see if it aligns. Peter
There is only one thread path on and off. Been tinkering with my original carbine & stud, a second original one, and a good reproduction, they all thread and index to the same location. I tried starting the original stud in different positions and it will not thread at any other location no matter what you try.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Bert, a lot of those misoriented saddle ring studs are either bad reproductions or whoever removed them did not torque them down correctly, or they just need to be torqued to the right position. Or as Bob said, the reduction of the receiver metal will also affect where it indexes if they have been refinished.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
I time screws by carefully filing down the starting point of the threads of the screw or stud. It is not hard to do, but practice on some small nut and bolts. I like timed slots on firearms. Now I have next winter’s project for my 22’s.?
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
Eagle said
Whether I do this or not, I still want to understand this. If the receiver is threaded and the stud is threaded, then there is only one position that the stud will start screwing into the receiver, and then the stud will end up where it ends up, crooked or horizontal like it should. I would think one could file on the starting point of the first thread on the stud to change that position, but don’t know that for sure. Thanks for help, Peter
So Vince….that actually works?? Peter
Related question: How did Winchester attach the ring itself to the stud? Are the rings made of spring steel so the ends can be twisted apart far enough to get one end into the stud hole? And then the ring springs back closed? The Winchester factory end gap on the ring itself is virtually perfect. Re-installed rings are often not as good on end gap tightness.
Peter,
Filing the starting end of the thread has nothing to do with where it bottoms out unless you are putting the screw into a blind hole and the end of the screw is hitting the blind end. Go back to the bolt and nut experiment, now cut off a couple threads, the head will still bottom out against the nut in the same position. You could start with a bolt a foot long and keep cutting it and it will always stop at the same place. This is like the laws of Physics but for mechanics. The only thing that controls what position the head stops at is the position of where the thread ends against the head. You can influence that by removing or adding metal under the head or by torquing the bolt into the nut and causing the threads to yield.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Bob, I didn’t mean cut the end of the bolt off, I meant just filing off the starting thread on the stud just a little. I think that is what Vince says he does, but could be wrong. Peter
CJS57 said
Related question: How did Winchester attach the ring itself to the stud? Are the rings made of spring steel so the ends can be twisted apart far enough to get one end into the stud hole? And then the ring springs back closed? The Winchester factory end gap on the ring itself is virtually perfect. Re-installed rings are often not as good on end gap tightness.
The rings are not spring steel, they are plain unhardened steel. You bend then apart. You could take 2 adjustable wrenches (Winchester probably had special tools for this) and with one on each side of the split you twist the ring opening the gap and you put it on the same way. If you have a gap you put the ring in a padded vise and squeeze the ring removing the gap and then put it back on and hopefully you didn’t squeeze it too much.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Eagle said
Bob, I didn’t mean cut the end of the bolt off, I meant just filing off the starting thread on the stud just a little. I think that is what Vince says he does, but could be wrong. Peter
Peter,
Filing or cutting the starting thread has nothing to do with the final position of the head. You can have a bolt 12″ long and you can file it, cut it anywhere multiple times and it will always stop against the head in the same position. Filing the starting end only can influence the head position if the bolt is hitting the end of a blind hole.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
One thing no one has mentioned is the fact that the original threaded saddle ring studs found on the 1876, 1886, 1894 and 1895 carbines, have a concave cut on the bottom. When the stud is screwed into the receiver, the outside edge of the concave can easily be filed slightly to seat against the receiver in the proper direction. The concave will actually flatten out a couple thousandths on an inch. This is also what keeps the stud tight against the receiver.
WIN 4575 is absolutely correct. The boss on the saddle rings were machined concave with a crush factor. This allowed the factory to index them correctly no matter how the stud and frame were threaded. This is also why, once removed, they almost never go back correctly… the crush is gone.
I think Bert has the saddle ring stud confused with the cap for a pickle jar .
Mike,
Love your term “crush factor”. That explains it perfectly. Works the same way as pushing a suction cup against a flat surface. Fact is, if you purchase the correct reproduction stud, made the same way as the originals, filing it may not be necessary at all.
It’s the same principle as the crush washer used when installing and timing a muzzle device on an AR-15.
But maybe I’m the only one here familiar with that process. ?
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
Yes, a simple solution to what seems a complex problem. Remember, these same saddle rings and studs were used on several models, having the outside surface of the frame identical to where you can time a screw to seat at a pre-determined direction would be a real PITA, especially considering the human factor… how much surface is polished off by different polishers.
By cutting a concave radius on the inside of the stud, the same stud can be used no matter where the threads start, just turn a little tighter. If you need proof, just take a stud off a receiver, you will see a nice little ring where just the outer edge has made contact with the frame.
A lot of the folks making repo studs don’t know or really care to make them correctly.
Attached are a couple of photos I just took of a saddle ring stud taken off a new Model 94 30-30 in the early 1970’s that has been in a spare parts drawer since then. The inner edge of the stud is not concave but has a very slightly raised edge, about 1/32″ wide and that raised edge is the only part that shows any contact. That area is a bit shiny and looks to me like that was the only area that made contact with the receiver side and was slightly flattened by torque being applied to turn it to the right position.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
The pictures above also show how tightly the ring ends butt up together. I would still like to know how Winchester achieved this fit. I have yet to see a gunsmith’s replacement ring that is near as good as originals.
I have a “how to do” about this somewhere. It involves spreading the closed ring apart by twisting one end of the ring just a bit so the two ends are no longer aligned and the stud will slip on, and putting it in a padded vice (in the middle at the bottom, leaving the open part of the ring at the top) and use a hammer and small block of wood to align the two again, You can pound the rings closed more if needed or align them together. I’ve done it and not that hard. Peter
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