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I am working on a 94′ carbine that is a bit beat up. It has a DOM of 1937 and had a saddle ring, the big single post type, that has been ground off. I want to remove it and replace it. I know the shank is threaded into the receiver, but don’t know the thread size or what keeps it tight in the hole after one installs it. It looks like one has to end up with the mounting stud in just the right place when you are done also, or it will look hokey. Anyone know how all of this is done so things come out correctly and what the thread size is. Help is appreciated. Thanks, Peter
Peter,
Unless it was special ordered, a 1937 vintage Model 94 should not have a saddle ring installed. If it is an original factory saddle ring, the stud should be 1/4-30. The stud orientation is dictated by the starting position when you begin screwing it in.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert for that info. So is the receiver threaded also, and how does one know where to start in order to end up right?? Peter
Peter,
You don’t have any choice as to when the stud come tight and what angle its pointing if both are threaded. The simplest solution would be to add a shim of the right thickness under the stud to get it come tight and have the stud horizontal.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
There is probably a way to chuck it in a lath and turn off a little at a time to do it right but in my limited experience with using a lath it is very difficult to get a something to turn true if you don’t have much to chuck to.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I see a wreck here. How was it done at the factory if you know. Thanks for input. Peter
I don’t know for sure but I would guess they made the parts and threaded the hole so the threads were indexed in the exact same position from part to part so you could interchange studs. When you get the old one out you will just have to try the new stud and hope you get lucky.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I’ve successfully timed similar screws for other projects by chucking them in a drill (press) and taking a file to the backside of the head. Can work if you only need to fine tune the final timing. Never tried on a sling stud, however.
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
Peter,
Yes the receiver is threaded… how could it not be?
The length of the stud and its starting position when you begin screwing it in will dictate where it finally comes to a stop and is oriented. I have seen many hundreds of Model 1894/94 Carbines with misoriented saddle rings as a result of being removed, and then reinstalled. It is the starting position of the stud that will control where it finishes its orientation.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Whether I do this or not, I still want to understand this. If the receiver is threaded and the stud is threaded, then there is only one position that the stud will start screwing into the receiver, and then the stud will end up where it ends up, crooked or horizontal like it should. I would think one could file on the starting point of the first thread on the stud to change that position, but don’t know that for sure. Thanks for help, Peter
The length of the threads can be any length and it will always stop in the same position. Its where the thread ends when the shoulder of the stud and receiver meet that controls what position it will be. The only way to change it if both pieces are already threaded is to add or remove material from the shoulder.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Eagle said
If the receiver is threaded and the stud is threaded, then there is only one position that the stud will start screwing into the receiver, and then the stud will end up where it ends up, crooked or horizontal like it should. I would think one could file on the starting point of the first thread on the stud to change that position, but don’t know that for sure. Thanks for help, Peter
Wrong! The stud is a 360-degree circle. The hole you are starting it in is also a 360-degree circle. You can begin screwing in the stud with it oriented at any starting position within the 360-degree arc. If you start threading it in with the stud pointing 90-degrees off of top center, it will stop 90-degrees off of where it would stop if you start it at top center. Simply rotate the stud to different starting positions and run it down tight and see where it stops. Because the threaded length of the stud is constant, it is the controlling factor in where the stud base will come tight to the receiver frame based on where in the 360 arc you begin.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
You are completely wrong here. The only way your scenario would work is if the receiver is not threaded and the stud is a self tapping screw. Take a nut and bolt, screw the nut up until it hits the head and mark the two flat of the nut and bolt with a marker, now try to get the nut to come tight in a different place (As long as you don’t flip the nut over). My gunsmith just stopped by and he said that Winchester saddle ring studs are timed just like the barrels are so they come up snug just before the correct position so you can torque it in the correct position . He has run across slight variations to it but they generally close. Now if you have a repo stud it could be way off.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I had done the test with the big bolt and nut and found, after marking them both, that the bolt and nut only mate at one point and will not mate at any other point around the circle. It would be tough to get this right I’m thinking. Peter
Peter,
If you have a original stud to replace it with you might have a chance.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
If its original threads in the receiver and an original saddle ring stud they should index properly to the correct position. Ive replaced a few that had been ground down some time in the past and the original (and some replacements depending on where you get them) always indexed to the right place or fairly close.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Bob,
Please explain to us why so many Model 1894/94 SRCs are found with misoriented saddle rings, especially those that have been disassembled to be refinished. If they were all indexed as you believe, you would not find many (if any) of them misoriented. For what it is worth, a friend of mine just fixed a misoriented saddle ring on a SRC he recently purchased by unscrewing it, and then reattaching it by changing the starting orientation.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
When you refinish a gun you remove metal off the receiver by sand or buffing. Now the stud will turn in farther that it originally did. Now if a stud is removed and put back in it could turn in farther than it originally did since the threads yield a little bit each. I have used that process to torque castle nuts to their proper torque and have the cotter pin hole line up, I tighten and remove several times until I get the proper alignment. Your friend fixed the stud alignment by doing just that. You can not start a threaded bolt in any other position than the one thread if you do its what we call cross threaded.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
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