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Some post-63 Model 70 talk
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March 7, 2025 - 6:44 pm
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The discussion of the post-63 Model 70 Mannlicher rifle got me thinking.  Even though I’m mainly a pre-64 guy (ideally pre-1900 guy), I have owned several post-63 Model 70 rifles.  I did have the .308 M70 Mannlicher and I’ve owned a few other M70’s over the years.  I can think of a .280 Remington, a .25 WSSM, a stainless steel .270 Weatherby (factory chambering), a custom barreled 6.5x.284 as well as one in a .330 Dakota, and a M70 Black Shadow .30-06 (that I immediately took the barrel off and had an 8mm Gibbs octagon barrel installed).  I’m sure there were others I can’t think of at the moment.  

So….. I don’t feel completely unqualified to comment on these rifles.  I have paid occasional attention to them over the years – particularly uncommon variations.

Here’s a couple that might catch the interest of a, “post-63 collector”:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles-model-70-pre-64/winchester-model-70-classic-custom-safari-35-whelen-grade-2-engraved.cfm?gun_id=101714686

half octagon barrel!

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles—model-70-post-64/winchester-model-70-ultimate-classic-special-order-custom-shop-25-06-caliber.cfm?gun_id=100831963

https://lsbauctions.com/winchester-custom-shop-model-70-358-sta-24-stainless-bolt-action-rifle/

left hand version with 1/2 octagon:

https://www.gunauction.com/buy/16963890

.470 Capstick (1 of 125):

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/60/3327/winchester-70-rifle-470-capstick

Winchester M70 Safari Express in .416 Remington mag.  This is a test review.  Note the report of two 100 yard 3-shot groups – one measured 0.25 and the other 0.31:

https://www.outdoorcanada.ca/gun-review-winchesters-model-70-safari-express-is-an-iconic-safari-rifle/

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/87/545/collector-serialized-set-of-winchester-model-70-big-5-rifles

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March 8, 2025 - 1:43 am
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Steve,

I can relate to that 35 Whelen 99.5%, its only flaw being the absence of an ebony or horn forearm tip, which is just a stying feature I like. We ought to ask Merino if he engraved the gun.

I’ve never seen a Custom Shop job I didn’t like. The problem that kept me from ever placing an order was I needed both my arms and legs and Winchester wanted two of any of them for Custom Shop work. Their prices and completion times sounded like a felony jail sentence:  “$5,000 and 27 months.”

I was disappointed when USRAC never revived the African, which is just more stylish than the Safari Express, to my eyes anyway. I’ve got one of the last Africans to come out of New Haven before Olin sold the gunmaking assets in 1981.

Do I have any use for a .458 Magnum, particularly the 1980 version, handsome as it may be?  No, I just followed Harry Selby’s lead. He owned and used the very same vintage African for his Safari work, before his retirement. Push feed and all. Winchester-Model-70-Super-Grade-African-458_101617358_18937_9B6062F8DC6AF50E.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-70-Super-Grade-African-458_101617358_18937_7E093803CEC01083.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-70-Super-Grade-African-458_101617358_18937_1EFC606CDBBF8145.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-70-Super-Grade-African-458_101617358_18937_6C4CA782635E012F.jpgImage Enlarger These images are of a 1967 African, not mine. The only difference is the 1980 version reverted to the solid (unventilated) red Winchester logo pad. The post ’63 Africans used the 1964 push feed action and a 22″ barrel, instead of 25″.  However, the stocks were subcontracted to a small shop and still hand checkered and inletted.  Like their pre-64 predecessor, they are overlight and will give you a headache pretty quick. 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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March 8, 2025 - 2:19 pm
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Zebulon said
Steve,

I can relate to that 35 Whelen 99.5%, its only flaw being the absence of an ebony or horn forearm tip, which is just a stying feature I like. We ought to ask Merino if he engraved the gun.

I’ve never seen a Custom Shop job I didn’t like. The problem that kept me from ever placing an order was I needed both my arms and legs and Winchester wanted two of any of them for Custom Shop work. Their prices and completion times sounded like a felony jail sentence:  “$5,000 and 27 months.”

I was disappointed when USRAC never revived the African, which is just more stylish than the Safari Express, to my eyes anyway. I’ve got one of the last Africans to come out of New Haven before Olin sold the gunmaking assets in 1981.

Do I have any use for a .458 Magnum, particularly the 1980 version, handsome as it may be?  No, I just followed Harry Selby’s lead. He owned and used the very same vintage African for his Safari work, before his retirement. Push feed and all. Winchester-Model-70-Super-Grade-African-458_101617358_18937_9B6062F8DC6AF50E.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-70-Super-Grade-African-458_101617358_18937_7E093803CEC01083.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-70-Super-Grade-African-458_101617358_18937_1EFC606CDBBF8145.jpgImage EnlargerWinchester-Model-70-Super-Grade-African-458_101617358_18937_6C4CA782635E012F.jpgImage Enlarger These images are of a 1967 African, not mine. The only difference is the 1980 version reverted to the solid (unventilated) red Winchester logo pad. The post ’63 Africans used the 1964 push feed action and a 22″ barrel, instead of 25″.  However, the stocks were subcontracted to a small shop and still hand checkered and inletted.  Like their pre-64 predecessor, they are overlight and will give you a headache pretty quick. 

  

Bill – 

Thanks for your post – I learned a few things about post-63 Winchesters.  Back in the later 70’s and early 80’s, I coveted a post-63 .458 African.  I recall nearly pulling the trigger on one.  Often regretted not getting it.  As a handloader, the .458 makes a lot of sense and has a lot of adaptability.  Most of the .458 shooting I have done was with a custom Mauser.  I shot gas-check lead bullets, 300 grain and 400 jacketed hollow points, 500 grain soft points and metal case bullets – and others!  A handloader can do a lot with a .458 Cool 

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March 8, 2025 - 7:41 pm
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Steve,

Good informative post for referencing.

Some very good stuff from Bill here also.

For me it’s enjoyable to read and learn other like minded collectors and pick up on there point of views. This is one of those times.

 

Anthony

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March 8, 2025 - 9:49 pm
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I was a fan of the post-63 Winchester long before I began to collect the pre-64’s. I was aware of the earlier models but couldn’t bring myself to pursue them. For my purposes there were no better rifles at that time than a Model 70, and being a tightwad my favorite was actually a Model 670. I suppose it may be time to come full circle and gather up a dozen or so nice examples and see where they go….or at least a couple.

 

 

Mike

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March 9, 2025 - 4:49 am
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The Model 670 was severely underrated. A hunting partner of mine had one and it was stylistically superior in its simplicity to the then current Model 70 — and very sturdy, reliable and accurate.

That’s the crazy thing about the post-63 Model 70s. I’m talking about the hideous 1964-67 rifles, particularly. They are ugly but overcame, out of the box, the accuracy-limiting action design and bedding problems of the old rifles. What kicked the Buddha’s gong was their cheap and tawdry appearance. The 670 avoided a lot of that criticism because it was intended to be a utility rifle and shot like blazes, too. Nobody complained about a cheap-looking floorplate because it didn’t have one, which helped its appearance. 

I think the contemporaneous introduction of the “new” sintered metal 94 contributed to the marketing disaster as much as the 1964 Model 70, and the flimsy looking 200 Series rimfires were another nail in the coffin. 

I still can vividly recall the sour look on the late Jack Mcbride’s face as he showed me a new 1965 Model 70. Jack had moved a lot of guns and his opinion carried a lot of weight with Central Texas hunters. And he was only one of many American dealers.

All in all, as unpleasant as it must have been for John Olin to get Olin-Mathieson out of making Winchesters, I think he did those of us who want to see the brand continue a favor.  While we might prefer to have a prewar Model 64 or 71 in our locker,  the fact that Winchester fans can now buy a brand new Model 92, 94, 95 — even a previously unthinkable Model 1873 and 1886 — should be very gratifying. The designs are just too good to be relegated to display. 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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March 9, 2025 - 5:05 am
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Steve004 said:  Thanks for your post – I learned a few things about post-63 Winchesters. Back in the later 70’s and early 80’s, I coveted a post-63 .458 African. I recall nearly pulling the trigger on one. Often regretted not getting it. As a handloader, the .458 makes a lot of sense and has a lot of adaptability. Most of the .458 shooting I have done was with a custom Mauser. I shot gas-check lead bullets, 300 grain and 400 jacketed hollow points, 500 grain soft points and metal case bullets – and others! A handloader can do a lot with a .458 Cool.

I agree.  The .458 is a very flexible handloader’s cartridge. You don’t have to batter yourself to pieces every time you pull the trigger. Unless you want or need to. 

One consignment gun I passed on to my everlasting regret was a nice, very lightly used Colt Sauer .458 for a thousand bucks. Instead of the 8.5 to 9 pounds of the African, it weighed about 11 pounds, a good deal of which was in the hefty contour barrel. It suffered from the Weatherby look then in style but was beautifully made. And it had not been ruined by a muzzle brake. 

- Bill 

 

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"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

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March 9, 2025 - 12:53 pm
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Zebulon said

Steve004 said:  Thanks for your post – I learned a few things about post-63 Winchesters. Back in the later 70’s and early 80’s, I coveted a post-63 .458 African. I recall nearly pulling the trigger on one. Often regretted not getting it. As a handloader, the .458 makes a lot of sense and has a lot of adaptability. Most of the .458 shooting I have done was with a custom Mauser. I shot gas-check lead bullets, 300 grain and 400 jacketed hollow points, 500 grain soft points and metal case bullets – and others! A handloader can do a lot with a .458 Cool.

I agree.  The .458 is a very flexible handloader’s cartridge. You don’t have to batter yourself to pieces every time you pull the trigger. Unless you want or need to. 

One consignment gun I passed on to my everlasting regret was a nice, very lightly used Colt Sauer .458 for a thousand bucks. Instead of the 8.5 to 9 pounds of the African, it weighed about 11 pounds, a good deal of which was in the hefty contour barrel. It suffered from the Weatherby look then in style but was beautifully made. And it had not been ruined by a muzzle brake. 

  

Bill –

Interesting similarity.  I too, coveted the Colt Sauer in .458 – with the bubinga wood stock Cool

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March 9, 2025 - 1:12 pm
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Steve,

I always have loved the Bubinga wood out of Africa, as a Carpenter friend of mine built a beautiful dining room table out of, “Waterfall Bubinga”, that actually looks like it’s flowing! Amazing looking material. IMO! I don’t recall ever seeing a stock made out of it.

Another very informative, and good thread!

 

Anthony

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March 9, 2025 - 1:35 pm
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Anthony said
Steve,

I always have loved the Bubinga wood out of Africa, as a Carpenter friend of mine built a beautiful dining room table out of, “Waterfall Bubinga”, that actually looks like it’s flowing! Amazing looking material. IMO! I don’t recall ever seeing a stock made out of it.

Another very informative, and good thread!

 

Anthony

  

Tony –

Yes, African Bubinga wood was standard for the Colt Sauer Grand African.  I’ve seen some rifles where the wood has been more spectacular than others.  

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March 9, 2025 - 1:50 pm
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Steve,

I did not know or realize that! Smile

Thanks,

Tony

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