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28 gauge said
MRCVS any idea why the rifle had 5 received in warehouse listings ,but only 3 shipped from warehouse listings?
I was informed this rifle was likely an exhibition or exposition firearm so I’m guessing management may have recorded a return of the rifle to the factory five times but failed to record a shipment out 2 of those 5 times???
I pulled out my 1951 Gun Digest. They illustrate both versions of the M64 and the M71. The “Special Rifle” version of the M71 is not referred to as such. The M64 Deer rifle is referred to as the, “Deer Rifle” and there is no mention of, “Deluxe.” However, turning to the shotgun section, there is a, “Model 42 Deluxe” listed – described as follows –
Made on special order only — full fancy walnut, fancy checkering, hand smoothed working parts with engine turned bolt and carrier. Stocked to customer’s dimensions without extra charge, except for Monte Carlo, cheek piece of offset. Simple or elaborate engraving or carving at extra cost. Price…. $156.00.
By the way, the “Model 42 Standard Grade” is listed $96.35
None of the Model 12 shotguns are listed as deluxe versions. However, the highest grade Model 21 is listed as a, “Deluxe.”
Both J.C. Higgins and Western Field have pump shotguns models listed as, “De Luxe.”
Also listed in 1951, Remington made a, “De Luxe Grade Model 870 ADL” that was positioned between their 870 Standard Grade and their 870 Premier Grade.
It’s beginning to appear to me that the firearms industry started to use the “Deluxe” or, “De Luxe” term as early as the mid-1940’s. As this term was used to describe a fancier grade of firearm, I suspect collector’s began to apply it retrospectively to older rifles that were also of fancier grade.
steve004 said
Thank you. That is interesting. I have been on the look for the term Deluxe in print somewhere. My take on it is this is the ad-writers from Winchester’s marketing department at work. But they do indeed state, “De Luxe” in reference to the “Deer Rifle.”
Yes, appears to be something an ad writer thought up.Most Model 64 ads just refer to Standard and Deer Rifle.When looking at the Model 71 rifle ads , all I find is the plain Model 71 listed ,then checkered version,but no deluxe or other term used for the higher grade rifle.
Perhaps dealers and buyers started referring to the higher grade Model 64 and Model 71 rifles as deluxe ,just to make it easier to know just which version they were talking about?Interesting that Winchester called the upgraded version of the Model 64 the Deer Rifle,while they had no name for the upgraded version of the Model 71.
mrcvs said
I was informed this rifle was likely an exhibition or exposition firearm so I’m guessing management may have recorded a return of the rifle to the factory five times but failed to record a shipment out 2 of those 5 times???
Thanks for that information.
about 25 years ago i bought out a old hardware store that had dozens and dozens of old Winchester catalogs,books etc.. priceless info . when talking about “special order” or ” optional at no cost” we must remember that with different models and different years bring different rules. I pulled this catalog out fast and you can clearly see that the 1/2 magazine was not a “no cost option” and was in fact $1.50 extra “special order” . the standard barrel configurations were round and octagon with the octagon being obviously more costly. no mention of the 1/2 octagon barrel as it was a special order and not listed. it was even more expensive than the octagon.
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
JEREMY S. said
Winchester made changes over the years. My 1916 catalog clearly states that shotgun butts (rubber or steel) or half magazines were available, “at no extra cost.” In the Model 1886, an octagon barrel was more expensive, but it was not listed as a special order or and option to choose. Rather, it was simply a different rifle with a different price.
steve004 said
I pulled out my 1951 Gun Digest. They illustrate both versions of the M64 and the M71. The “Special Rifle” version of the M71 is not referred to as such. The M64 Deer rifle is referred to as the, “Deer Rifle” and there is no mention of, “Deluxe.” However, turning to the shotgun section, there is a, “Model 42 Deluxe” listed – described as follows –Made on special order only — full fancy walnut, fancy checkering, hand smoothed working parts with engine turned bolt and carrier. Stocked to customer’s dimensions without extra charge, except for Monte Carlo, cheek piece of offset. Simple or elaborate engraving or carving at extra cost. Price…. $156.00.
By the way, the “Model 42 Standard Grade” is listed $96.35
None of the Model 12 shotguns are listed as deluxe versions. However, the highest grade Model 21 is listed as a, “Deluxe.”
Both J.C. Higgins and Western Field have pump shotguns models listed as, “De Luxe.”
Also listed in 1951, Remington made a, “De Luxe Grade Model 870 ADL” that was positioned between their 870 Standard Grade and their 870 Premier Grade.
It’s beginning to appear to me that the firearms industry started to use the “Deluxe” or, “De Luxe” term as early as the mid-1940’s. As this term was used to describe a fancier grade of firearm, I suspect collector’s began to apply it retrospectively to older rifles that were also of fancier grade.
I just read an article in the Winter 2016 Collector magazine, written by Bert, which may indicate the 1934 catalog offered a factory deluxe version of the Model 65 – although I am not sure if Winchester actually called the gun a deluxe.
I think this thread serves as a great example of the nitty-gritty obsessive detail we collectors thrive on 
steve004 said
Winchester made changes over the years. My 1916 catalog clearly states that shotgun butts (rubber or steel) or half magazines were available, “at no extra cost.” In the Model 1886, an octagon barrel was more expensive, but it was not listed as a special order or and option to choose. Rather, it was simply a different rifle with a different price.
My point exactly steve, when referring to a particular Winchester with a “no cost option” or “special order feature” etc. we must look at the model,year produced and refer to what winchester was or was not offering at that time.. as I said before different years bring different rules.. cheers
Jeremy Scott.
WACA LIFE MEMBER, CFM MEMBER, ABKA MEMBER, JSSC MEMBER, MNO HISTORIAN
28 gauge said
Yes, appears to be something an ad writer thought up.Most Model 64 ads just refer to Standard and Deer Rifle.When looking at the Model 71 rifle ads , all I find is the plain Model 71 listed ,then checkered version,but no deluxe or other term used for the higher grade rifle.
Perhaps dealers and buyers started referring to the higher grade Model 64 and Model 71 rifles as deluxe ,just to make it easier to know just which version they were talking about?Interesting that Winchester called the upgraded version of the Model 64 the Deer Rifle,while they had no name for the upgraded version of the Model 71.
Winchester referred to this version as the, “Model 71 Special Rifle”
Online
steve004 said
Interestingly, in the cataloged preface for, “Extras for Winchester Rifles” Winchester implies a, “special order” perspective in that they state:All deviations from standard styles and sizes involve a large proportional outlay for hand labor, and, when ordered, will be subject to the following charges, which should be added to the list price of the rifle: – “
When a customer ordered a gun with some combination of the standard options, for which no extra charge was made, wouldn’t that also require that a special work order be conveyed to the assembly shop? To have guns with those specific options already made up & waiting in the warehouse seems impractical to me, due to the cost of maintaining such a large inventory. If that’s the way an order was made up when uncommon options were selected, if the gun was not simply pulled off the rack for delivery to the customer, I think the “special order” terminology is not unjustified. Making the definition depend solely on whether or not an extra charge was assessed seems too narrow an interpretation to me.
clarence said
When a customer ordered a gun with some combination of the standard options, for which no extra charge was made, wouldn’t that also require that a special work order be conveyed to the assembly shop? To have guns with those specific options already made up & waiting in the warehouse seems impractical to me, due to the cost of maintaining such a large inventory. If that’s the way an order was made up when uncommon options were selected, if the gun was not simply pulled off the rack for delivery to the customer, I think the “special order” terminology is not unjustified. Making the definition depend solely on whether or not an extra charge was assessed seems too narrow an interpretation to me.
I agree. If you order a rifle of a certain model in a certain caliber how could you be assured you’d get the octagon barrel and not the round barrel? Something “special” had to be done. I just don’t get hung up on the word special.
steve004 said
28 gauge said
Yes, appears to be something an ad writer thought up.Most Model 64 ads just refer to Standard and Deer Rifle.When looking at the Model 71 rifle ads , all I find is the plain Model 71 listed ,then checkered version,but no deluxe or other term used for the higher grade rifle.
Perhaps dealers and buyers started referring to the higher grade Model 64 and Model 71 rifles as deluxe ,just to make it easier to know just which version they were talking about?Interesting that Winchester called the upgraded version of the Model 64 the Deer Rifle,while they had no name for the upgraded version of the Model 71.Winchester referred to this version as the, “Model 71 Special Rifle”
Okay,have not seen it listed as such, in any of the ads I have looked at.However, I have not looked at them all.
Chuck said
I agree. If you order a rifle of a certain model in a certain caliber how could you be assured you’d get the octagon barrel and not the round barrel? Something “special” had to be done. I just don’t get hung up on the word special.
In the case of the M1886, the round barrel rifle was a different rifle than the octagon barrel rifle – and they weren’t priced the same.
I think like a lot of things, best sellers are made up in advance and ready to go. Products that are not as popular might be, “made to order.” Take a restaurant with a very large menu for example. Some of their popular items are made up in advance and some of the less popular take more time. I’ve had that happened to me at a restaurant – I’ve ordered something and they’ve advised me it’s going to take longer. In the Winchester world, they likely had .45-70 and .45-90 rifles made up and ready to go more than they had .40-70’s and .38-70’s ready to go.
28 gauge said
Okay,have not seen it listed as such, in any of the ads I have looked at.However, I have not looked at them all.
Courtesy of Bert:
Burt Humphrey said
I just read an article in the Winter 2016 Collector magazine, written by Bert, which may indicate the 1934 catalog offered a factory deluxe version of the Model 65 – although I am not sure if Winchester actually called the gun a deluxe.
So, did anyone ever figure out if Winchester made a deluxe variation of the Model 65 and if it was actually called a “deluxe” from the factory. I even seem to remember a box for a model 65 that said “deluxe” – could be wrong – this getting old sucks.
Burt,
I did some digging through my catalogs covering the Model 65 production to verify this statement… to the best of my knowledge, Winchester did not ever catalog a “deluxe” or “Special” variant of the Model 65.
That stated, there were indeed a small number of them made. They are virtually a clone of the Model 64 Deer Rifle and Model 71 Special Rifle. Thus far, I have documented (surveyed) a total of (678) Model 65 rifles, and of that number just (40) are “deluxe” configured rifles, with the majority of them (29) being 218 Bees.
Here are three different 218 Bee “deluxe” rifles
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
steve004 said
Courtesy of Bert:
steve004 said
Courtesy of Bert:
Interesting.I wonder when they started or stopped using the term.Here is an ad that makes no mention of Special Rifle for the upgraded version.Just the rifle and the rifle without checkering, gun sling and swivels version.
Bert H. said
Burt,I did some digging through my catalogs covering the Model 65 production to verify this statement… to the best of my knowledge, Winchester did not ever catalog a “deluxe” or “Special” variant of the Model 65.
That stated, there were indeed a small number of them made. They are virtually a clone of the Model 64 Deer Rifle and Model 71 Special Rifle. Thus far, I have documented (surveyed) a total of (678) Model 65 rifles, and of that number just (40) are “deluxe” configured rifles, with the majority of them (29) being 218 Bees.
Here are three different 218 Bee “deluxe” rifles
Bert
That’s really cool information,Bert.Thanks for sharing.
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