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A nice fellow I know came by for a CCW renew today and pulled out a rifle that he knew I would like to see. He had a 92 that was nickel plated and a 12″ barrel. I told him right off I thought it was a cut off standard 92 oct barrel in 38-40. He said he had talked with Jessica at CFM and she thought it was legit and ordered a letter which says nothing about nickel or short barrel. He said he has talked with the ATF and they told him it was “grandfathered” in.
My question…… can this be legit with nothing in the letter about it being short? SN 268228
I have plenty of pictures of gun and letter if things go that far which I doubt.
Thanks, Charles
i’m not at the level of expertise as some of the members here…..but the rear sight looks to be too far forward for a 12″ short rifle? Shouldn’t it be set back closer to the receiver?
nascar fan said
A nice fellow I know came by for a CCW renew today and pulled out a rifle that he knew I would like to see. He had a 92 that was nickel plated and a 12″ barrel. I told him right off I thought it was a cut off standard 92 oct barrel in 38-40. He said he had talked with Jessica at CFM and she thought it was legit and ordered a letter which says nothing about nickel or short barrel. He said he has talked with the ATF and they told him it was “grandfathered” in.
My question…… can this be legit with nothing in the letter about it being short? SN 268228I have plenty of pictures of gun and letter if things go that far which I doubt.
Thanks, Charles
No offense, but it looks horribly buffed and overly sanded/refinished to me. Screws holes are dished out from over-buffing. Wood to metal fit is bad. Definitely not Winchester work, instead the work of bubba “gunsmith.” If the letter says nothing about nickel or the short barrel, it’s been altered after-the-fact.
Don
Like Don said, The nickel is not original because of the terrible buff job. My guess its not a original 12″. In the 73’s the shortest I heard of is 14″.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
nascar fan said
A nice fellow I know came by for a CCW renew today and pulled out a rifle that he knew I would like to see. He had a 92 that was nickel plated and a 12″ barrel. I told him right off I thought it was a cut off standard 92 oct barrel in 38-40. He said he had talked with Jessica at CFM and she thought it was legit and ordered a letter which says nothing about nickel or short barrel. He said he has talked with the ATF and they told him it was “grandfathered” in.
My question…… can this be legit with nothing in the letter about it being short? SN 268228I have plenty of pictures of gun and letter if things go that far which I doubt.
Thanks, Charles
Charles,
Jessica never offers opinions about the legitimacy of any firearms, and it is prohibited by CFM policy for her to do so. Further, if the factory ledgers do not indicate full nickel plate and the 12-inch barrel, the odds are 99.999% that it is not original in that configuration. I sincerely doubt that the owner spoke with the BATF about this gun. There is no “grandfather” clause for a SBR under the purveyance of the NFA. The only SBRs that are automatically exempted from the NFA are those manufactured before January 1st, 1899 (antique).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Charles,
Jessica never offers opinions about the legitimacy of any firearms, and it is prohibited by CFM policy for her to do so. Further, if the factory ledgers do not indicate full nickel plate and the 12-inch barrel, the odds are 99.999% that it is not original in that configuration. I sincerely doubt that the owner spoke with the BATF about this gun. There is no “grandfather” clause for a SBR under the purveyance of the NFA. The only SBRs that are automatically exempted from the NFA are those manufactured before January 1st, 1899 (antique).
Bert
Hi Bert,
If that’s the case regarding the BATF/NFA, that would make this rifle illegal to own, right?
Don
Without a clearance letter its a illegal gun to possess.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
deerhunter said
Hi Bert,
If that’s the case regarding the BATF/NFA, that would make this rifle illegal to own, right?
Don
Correct.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I would tell your guy to screw the barrel off until he gets it figured out.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Pretty much what I thought about the gun. I told him I would forward any info from you guys to him. As for the info I posted about CFM and ATF was just relaying what I was told.
Have you seen the video of the guy that guy off the barrel on his AR15.
You can’t fix stupid and ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
When you guys reference have a letter or clearance, are you meaning an actual piece of paper, or in short barrells, just a reference to the serial in the C&R book, published by the government ?
Bill
Blueliner said
When you guys reference have a letter or clearance, are you meaning an actual piece of paper, or in short barrells, just a reference to the serial in the C&R book, published by the government ?Bill
Bill,
Yes, it is an actual piece of paper (actually usually 2-pages). That stated, if it is in the Section III listing that the BATF publishes, that is sufficient. However, if it were me, I would have a printed (or copy) of the Section III list showing the serial number on the short barreled gun in my possession.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
Offline
It’s not on the III or IIIA list I printed less than a year ago. Ten foot pole would be a bit too short until a legit letter shows up.
Mike
Bert H. said
Bill,
Yes, it is an actual piece of paper (actually usually 2-pages). That stated, if it is in the Section III listing that the BATF publishes, that is sufficient. However, if it were me, I would have a printed (or copy) of the Section III list showing the serial number on the short barreled gun in my possession.
Bert
I don’t have a horse in the race, but what is the proper way in which someone should go about applying for such a letter?
…This is me dreaming that I’ll someday stumble across a short barrel Winchester!
I believe you have to send the gun to the ATF to have it inspected and they will determine if it was originally made as a short rifle or not. If they decide it was altered they probably will not send it back.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I found this on the ATF site which I believe answers it.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics
Bob
A regulation implementing Federal firearms laws, 27 CFR §478.11, defines Curio or Relic (C&R) firearms as those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.
To be recognized as C&R items, 478.11 specifies that firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
- Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;
- Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
- Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age. However, if you wish for a classification of your particular firearm under categories (b) or (c) above and wish your item to be listed, you may submit the weapon to the Firearms and Ammunition Technology Division (FATD) for a formal classification.
Please note that firearms regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) may be classified as C&R items, but still may be subject to the provisions of the NFA. If your C&R item is an NFA firearm (e.g., Winchester Trappers) and you desire removal from the NFA status, you must submit it to FATD for evaluation and a formal classification.
FATD
244 Needy Rd.,
Martinsburg, WV 25404Our Division does not make determinations based on drawings, photographs, written descriptions, or diagrams. In order to render an appropriate classification, please ship the physical item and any supporting information to the address above.
Please ship your item to FATD with a prepaid return shipping label with tracking for the return of your item (providing shipping account numbers, instead of providing a trackable prepaid shipping label, will not be accepted). The U.S. Postal Service (link is external) recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.
You cannot ship a handgun or ammunition through the U.S. Postal Service. A commercial carrier must be used to ship a handgun. Please check with the specific carrier before shipping to ensure your package meets all of legal requirements.
Do not use packing peanuts or similar types of packing material that may become lodged into moving parts of the item or device and cause safety issues. Small parts and pieces must be placed into a sealed zip-lock type clear plastic bag to prevent loss. FATD may be unable to return the sample if the item is classified as an unregistered NFA weapon (machinegun, silencer, short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, etc.), or any other legally prohibited item.
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Just the caution in expressing opinions concerning “what’s “legal and what isn’t. Expertise in federal law, not necessarily addressing at all the possibility of state regulatory effects. Such where “complimentary”, (adding regulatory controls rather than contradicting), such circumstance often without federal preemption. Advice hazardous without either ability to address possible local jurisdiction issues OR definite and clear ‘red-flag’ disclaimer concerning such possible laws.
Not to rain on anyone, just a distinct caution… not limited to here in ‘caution exemplary’ California!
My take
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