Shipping C&R rifle usps|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

Hi, In my transactions a Non FFL holder needs to ship through a FFL. This applies to the handguns I have bought. Not sure about a long gun.  Walter

USPS Registered Mail is the way to go.

C&R’s can ship handguns to other C&R’s through USPS if they are on the BATF list. Your local gunshop will answer this question for you.

Walter

wolfbait said

 I do not have an FFL, can I ship a C&R eligible rifle to a C&R holder in another state.  USPS regs are hard to interpret, they keep referencing other regulations.

I’m not a lawyer, only a licensed collector who always tries to obey the rules.  Based upon what I’ve read/experienced, yes and no respectively.  It must be shipped via an FFL dealer, etc. (NOT 03 C&R) in accordance with USPS rules.  However, Federal law only specifies to a “licensee” (27 CFR 478.31 specifically mentions licensed collector) and be shipped via common carrier (i.e. FedEx, UPS).  Don’t know what the current common carrier rules are…I always ship/receive FFL to FFL.  

I’ve seen much Internet “banter” over various interpretations of rules/regulations, and know for a fact there are some (particularly 03 C&R holders) who don’t know/do what they’re supposed to, and rather than engage in useless contention & “flaming” from kitchen-table lawyers, I do what I know (and should know).

USPS Publication 52:

432.3 Rifles and Shotguns

(g) “Rifles and shotguns may be mailed by a non-FFL owner domestically to a FFL dealer, manufacturer, or importer in any state…”

http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm#ep350890

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-nonlicensee-ship-firearm-through-us-postal-service 

Just don’t send it via USPS. 

Also, some C&R holders will request a copy of your driver’s license or a comparable government-issued form of I.D. for their records.  Regardless of how many times I’ve heard the: “It doesn’t say that in the Federal regs, so I’m not sending it;” when you live in a STATE that requires that information and you don’t have that information at your disposal, you are in violation of the conditions associated with holding a C&R license.  Don’t even get me going…   

Winchacher supplied the appropriate USPS regulation…Section 12 http://pe.usps.com/archive/html/dmmarchive20120122/601.htm#1201800

Open the link and scroll to Section 12.2.d…”Except as described in 12.1.2a, licensed curio and relic collectors may mail firearms meeting the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 domestically to FFL licensed curio and relic collectors in any state. USPS recommends these items be mailed using those services described in12.2a..” 

12.1.2a referenced in 12.2.d merely restricts the mailing of handguns.

A couple of key points:

– Take a copy of these regs with you to the post office.  Some postmasters are not familiar with them.  I personally have been initially denied the opportunity to mail, but then politely showed them the regs, and they then allowed me to ship

– The last sentence about the USPS recommends mailing the items as described in 12.2a…keep in mind the reg used the word “recommends” as opposed to require.  Than can be important b/c a confused postmaster may try to force you to send Express Mail with Return Service Requested.  That is not necessary per 12.2.d

Greg

The answer to the original question seems pretty clear cut:

c.  Rifles and shotguns may be mailed by a non-FFL owner domestically to a FFL dealer, manufacturer, or importer in any state. USPS recommends these items be mailed using those services described in 12.2a..

d.  Except as described in 12.1.2a, licensed curio and relic collectors may mail firearms meeting the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 domestically to FFL licensed curio and relic collectors in any state. USPS recommends these items be mailed using those services described in12.2a..

The original question does not state whether wolfbait has a C&R license but the question implies that he has no license of any sort.  In that case a C&R eligible gun must be mailed by him as stated in c. above but that does not mean that the end recipient has to undergo a BATF background check to pick up the gun.  If the end recipient has a C&R license he should be able to pick it up from the FFL holder without the NICS check, as long as the mailed item qualifies as a C&R weapon.

…why I, an unlicensed person, can mail a C&R long gun to an FFL dealer, but not to a C&R FFL licensee, but 2 C&R FFL licensees can mail C&Rs to each other as stated in d. above. I don’t understand why the PO would make that distinction. And the obvious contradiction published by ATF on their website and in their booklet  “A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State.”  When a C&R holder is in fact a FFL licensee. I have a C&R in front of me. It says on the top Federal Firearms License. And six times on the license refers to the C&R holder as a licensee. I just thought perhaps someone has been through this and gotten a definitive answer from someone.

Greetings Wolfbait:

I know…it’s absurd; absolutely crazy and contradicting in too many ways!  It’s much too easy for an honest, law-abiding person who wants to do things right to get into trouble inadvertently.  Criminals don’t spent much time pondering and communicating like we are here. 

From my experience as a licensed collector, most all of the firearms rules & regulations pertain to FFL licensees who engage in the business of manufacturing, repairing, selling, etc. Although the C&R license physically appears virtually the same as any other commercial-type FFL, and comes from the same source, a private collector doesn’t have to meet the same requirements and oversight as those engaged in a firearms business. A C&R holder basically is not considered a true “FFL licensee” in many respects (i.e. C&R can’t ship a handgun USPS like an “FFL licensee”).

A Type 03 Curio & Relic license serves only to assist private collectors in engaging in their hobby; nothing more. And believe me, at times it can be extremely challenging and frustrating dealing with those who are not familiar with the C&R, don’t know the rules pertaining to, don’t want to and simply refuse to deal with C&R holders (in particular some 01 FFLs, etc.).

I’ve also found there seems to be extremely limited info/guidance with “gray-area” C&R issues, as you’re now experiencing. To make it even much more convoluted, some state laws can really throw a “monkey wrench” into the equation.

Between all the federal and state laws, shipping regulations, my state’s insane accountability system, etc. I’ve learned to become a better reader out of necessity; it’s easy to accept what you hear and read on the Internet as gospel, and perhaps very tempting and easy to take a “shortcut” to save time or money; but in the end it could potentially prove very costly in more ways than one. Not worth it! In order to save $75.00 on overnight air shipping I once had an FFL gunsmith tell me to ship a pistol via common carrier “Ground” service to his shop by putting the upper receiver in one package and the lower in another, not declaring there was a firearm inside (the lower receiver package), and to write “Machine Parts” under “Contents” on the shipping document. Told me he did it all the time. If that gun (lower receiver) ever turned up missing, etc., do you think for a second he’d be a witness for my defense at the Federal courthouse? You really have to be careful nowadays.    

I sometimes wonder why I renew the C&R, but the one time you unexpectedly find the “right” gun or a fabulous deal when least expected, it’s simply invaluable!

Some much for the “Don’t get me going” I initially posted.  You folks are actually therapeutic!  Hope I didn’t rub anyone the wrong way, as that sincerely wasn’t my intent.  This is a fabulous learning forum in so many ways. 

Wayne:

 All of the guns just mentioned would fall into the curio or relic area. Guns made on or before Dec. 31, 1898 would be antique and could be mailed to anyone. Not all FFL dealers seem to understand this or the C&R rules. That is probably the same reason you had different responses from your different dealers. There are 3 categories to determine a C&R weapon. The most inclusive one is ” have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof “

Paul