Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
Offline
Did anyone follow this? Is the trend still downwards, did downward trends stabilize, or was there even an upswing?
I’m not sure if now is the time to buy quality antique and vintage Winchester lever action rifles, or if the long term trend is more ominous?
I was watching more along the lines of the 22’s. Most went for above the high estimates. I didn’t bid on a single one….. I saw several NIB examples I didn’t even consider with all the fakery in that department. They all went very high, I hope the buyers got what they paid for!
Erin
I bid on lot 3028, a 1873 rifle in 38\40 with a 34″ oct barrel. Honest gun, it went for about 19k when you add buyer premium and sales tax. It left me in the dust at 15k. Rare or minty still brings good money is my take form the auction. New policy at RIA on sales tax, if you buy it there or pick it up there you pay 8.5% Ill. sales tax. If you buy by phone and have it shipped to you they collect your states sales tax. Exception is reseller’s tax permit. (Because of US Supreme Court decision, not their fault.) T/R
That’s my best guess as well. The high end stuff remains strong.
Not sure about the sales tax thing. Not all auction houses are charging it. Talk about a Supreme Court decision that was, hands down, WRONG! Very few loopholes out there anymore. That’s one that should not have been touched.
mrcvs said
Talk about a Supreme Court decision that was, hands down, WRONG!
Sales taxes are the most regressive of all taxes (hurt poor people disproportionately), but that’s no concern of the millionaires on the court & in Congress.
But it would be unenforceable without the contemptible complicity of the retailers. How could the tax dept. of one state find out what a seller in another state was selling to residents of the first state without bringing a lawsuit against the seller to force them to reveal those sales?
Clarence, They gave me a 7 page sales tax handout as I walked in, it included email addresses and tax rates in the various states. They collect the various states on the invoice if shipping and if you are there you pay IL. rate (8.5%). If I bid by phone in WI. and they ship, I pay WI. rate 5.5%, but if I drive there to pick it up I pay IL. 8.5%. An auction house in one of the few states without sales tax has a 8.5% advantage. I added the sales tax to the buyers premium when setting my max bid price (23.5%). The buyer of the 73 bid 15k and it cost him close to 19k if he did not have a retail sellers permit. T/R
TR said
Clarence, They gave me a 7 page sales tax handout as I walked in, it included email addresses and tax rates in the various states. They collect the various states on the invoice if shipping and if you are there you pay IL. rate (8.5%). If I bid by phone in WI. and they ship, I pay WI. rate 5.5%, but if I drive there to pick it up I pay IL. 8.5%.
Of course if you’re there in person, there’s no escaping it. But how would IL know you or anyone bought something by phone unless Rock Island voluntarily disclosed that info. to IL? It’s obviously impossible for IL to send agents to inspect the books of every mail-order retailer outside IL.
This is something obviously difficult to enforce. Then why enforce it? Some auction houses still do not.
clarence said
Of course if you’re there in person, there’s no escaping it. But how would IL know you or anyone bought something by phone unless Rock Island voluntarily disclosed that info. to IL? It’s obviously impossible for IL to send agents to inspect the books of every mail-order retailer outside IL.
As visible as Rock Island is they have to follow the letter of the law. If they chose to not collect out of state sales tax and they get audited they would be required to pay the back taxes they should of collected but instead of it coming from you it comes out of their pocket.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
IL. wants RIA to collect IL. sales tax (8.5%) or prove the buyer paid another state. The proof is collecting it and sending the money to the affected state. Most mail order retailers are doing it. This has to cost RIA revenue in the form of lost commissions, RIA doesn’t like it either. A sales tax audit is a retailers worst nightmare! T/R
TR said
IL. wants RIA to collect IL. sales tax (8.5%) or prove the buyer paid another state. The proof is collecting it and sending the money to the affected state. Most mail order retailers are doing it. This has to cost RIA revenue in the form of lost commissions, RIA doesn’t like it either. A sales tax audit is a retailers worst nightmare! T/R
If I am bidding at RIA, I would decrease my maximum bid by any sales tax I pay. It means I bid less, and items potentially sell for less than they otherwise would. An absolutely stupid ruling that hurts the auction house and sellers.
1873man said
As visible as Rock Island is they have to follow the letter of the law. If they chose to not collect out of state sales tax and they get audited they would be required to pay the back taxes they should of collected but instead of it coming from you it comes out of their pocket.
Bob
Audited by whom? Only a court order, following an expensive lawsuit brought by the tax dept of another state, might compel them to open their books. The laws of one state (such as a requirement that out-of-state sales are subject to local sales tax) are not enforceable in another state!
This rotten SC decision merely ALLOWS “foreign” states to collect sales tax, but there is no federal law REQUIRING sellers to notify out-of-state tax authorities that a sale has been made to a resident of that state. In other words, by NOT notifying the tax dept of another state, the in-state seller would not be breaking any laws of their own state, unless a law had been enacted in their own state requiring them to do so.
TR said
A sales tax audit is a retailers worst nightmare!
Yes it is, because the operating manual of the Gestapo is what is followed by the sales tax authorities of most states, and the more left-wing the state, the more ruthlessly it’s applied.
However, such an audit can only be conducted by the tax Gestapo of the state in which the business is located, not by out of state Gestapos. Did the SC decision give one state the legal authority to collect taxes for a another state? I don’t think so.
It seems like to me–which is my way of saying I have some no research into this, but logic suggests–that the only entity that would or should have a gripe about this would be the state in which the purchaser of a firearm is located, in that they would be “entitled” to the sales tax on it. If they are unaware of the transaction, which they should be, they should be unaware of the missing sales tax. If you are out of state, it should be ignored as it is unenforceable! I will continue to place higher bids at auction houses who, very wisely, choose to ignore this. It is only hurting RIA in the pocket.
Problem for them is these broke states can offer finders fees if they can collect a tax and penalty and they can be very generous. All you need is one disgruntled employee or even worse one disgruntled buyer to make a phone call and sit back and wait for their reward.
nanzca said
Problem for them is these broke states can offer finders fees if they can collect a tax and penalty and they can be very generous. All you need is one disgruntled employee or even worse one disgruntled buyer to make a phone call and sit back and wait for their reward.
But wouldn’t the penalty be imposed on the resident of that state who failed to pay the tax, not the seller? What law is the seller breaking in his own state by failing to report the sale? Is there a law in Il, for ex., REQUIRING all out-of-state sales to be reported to the state in which the buyer resides? Only if there is, would be R.I. be in violation.
If the seller has been put on notice by their state they are required to collect the tax than it is their responsibility if they don’t collect it. Gov’t will go after the deeper pockets.
Here’s another twist; if I purchase a firearm in Ill. in person, I pay Ill. tax 8.5%, I take the gun home to Wi. and now the onus is on Me to declare the out of state purchase and pay the 5.5% Wi. state sales tax. This may not be relevent but I do know if one buys a vehicle in Florida, You pay Fl. sales tax at the notary’s office, when You register it in your home state you pay the sales tax in that state also at the D.M.V. office. In My case (being Canadian) I pay tax in the state of purchase then pay again at the border, not only on the purchase price but on the price and the state tax as a total cost, talk about being ripped off.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
Henry,
If you paid the IL tax and you lived in Wi you don’t pay tax again. In a case of a automobile it has a title and the dealer would have you pay the tax for the place that is your residence. I think some states are different like Ark in that you only pay tax when a item is new but once it is considered used you don’t. I don’t know how it works if you bring it into Canada thou.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
I think some states are different like Ark in that you only pay tax when a item is new but once it is considered used you don’t.
God bless Ark if that’s true; it almost makes up for Slick Willie.
The very most evil, hateful, & vicious thing about sales tax, worse even than it’s regressive nature, is making it apply over & over again as used items are sold & resold ad infinitum.
1 Guest(s)
