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Please help me to understand the difference between refinished and restored terminology, and how each might affect a rifle’s value. I’m looking at a lovely little .22 pump with octagonal barrel and crescent stock that has obviously been refinished, but the owner calls it "restored". Should I negotiate or step away?
In another case a friend has a very nice 1892 originally chambered and roll stamped 32.30 which has been professionally converted to .357mag. We’ve had quite animated discussions on the relative value – or lack thereof – created by the conversion. Opinions welcome . . .
Most people will use the terms interchangeably but I would define refinish as the gun parts are original but it has been buffed, sanded and reblued. Restored I would define it as some parts were replaced or made new and then refinished. Either way it hurts the collector value. It all depends on what the price is on the gun if its worth buying and what you intend to do with the gun. If your just looking for a shooter, a refinished gun is great but if you want a gun to go up in value, then you want original condition.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
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rogerswin
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 206
Location: Orange County, CA
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:06 am Post subject: "Professional Restorations" and all the other stuf Reply with quote
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I appologize in advance for what may seem like I’m getting carried away here, but I’m tired of all restorations being put into one class and taking all these verbal put downs. A person owning a professionally done restoration will not make any bad remarks about it. They take it to the range and/or gun show with pride. Rightfully so, for they own a little bit of restored history, like a fine painting.
A professionally restored Winchester DOES NOT look brand new! Turnbull type restorations look brand new. These are not professionally restored! They are refinished. A properly restored Winchester will be in the 90%+- stage with proper looking ageing to both metal and wood. Blueing will show wear, case coloring will have ageing, bronze carriers on the Model 1873’s and 1876’s will have a mustard/crystalized finish, and wood will not appear to have been recently varnished. It will also have a few dings in it. Checkering will be the proper pattern with some wear to the diamonds. It will also be single shuffle cut without the use of a modern checkering machine. Borders will match what Winchester did at the time (depending on the manufacturing date). There are many little items that must take place in a properly restored Winchester. Just rubbing off the finish is NOT proper ageing! The completed project will appear as a well taken care of 100-year old gun! Most people seeing a professionally restored Winchester will not be able to tell that the work had been done by looking at the exterior only. If it is for sale, and the seller is an honest person, he will say so or the asking price will be the biggest give away. If the seller is not honest – then all I can say is, "buyer beware". I personally stamp my logo on the right side of the lower tang (R’s) just to guard against this, but I can’t speak for anyone else.
It has been my experience that If a person who speaks out against restorations were to come across, let’s say, a pistol grip deluxe Model 1873 or 1876 that is very well worn and misused with the stock busted at the wrist and pieces of wood missing, the barrel had been cut off, there is no blueing or case color finish left, and the checkering is all but gone, well this person will have a complete change of mind if the Cody records confirm the special features and he is assured it could be brought back properly. Bringing it back properly is a "professional restoration".
The term "firearm restoration" has been ruined in the past because all refinishing, reblueing, and botched up wood installations have been listed under the "restoration" name. As Bert and a few others on this forum have said, "a professional firearm restoration" is expensive! A restoration of this type will cost around $2000.00 to $2500.00, if no parts are required. Deluxe models requiring a new barrel, XXX wood, checkering, and case colored receiver will cost around $4500.00 to $5000.00! Keep in mind, a nice set of XXX feathered crotch wood blanks will cost $800.00 to $1000.00. This is just for the blanks – before carving into shape!
Roger
The term "Refinish" defines a gun that your local gunsmith worked on. The remanants of the original bluing were removed with a buffing wheel, and then were polished to the point where most if not all of the sharp corners and edges are now rounded and smooth, the screw holes are dished, screw head slots are left buggered, etc.. The stocks are sanded and then new finish (most often not the correct type) put back on them. In most cases the wood was sanded too aggressively, and does not fit properly. When refinishing the steel, many parts now have bluing on them instead of the original factory case color finish. And finaly, all too frequently, a "refinished" gun resembles a polished turd 🙁
The term "restored" defines a gun that was sent to a professional, and then carefully returned to as close to original condition as was possible. Restored guns will have the correct type finish on them (e.g. case colored parts, blued with the correct type bluing, and wood that has been carefully cleaned (or replaced), and the correct type finish put back on it. In many cases, parts are replaced or repaired as necessary, especially buggered screws. When you look at a properly "restored" gun, it looks like a nearly new factory original gun.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
As to buy it or step away. It all depends on what you want out of the gun. Do you want a investment or a nice looking gun to hang on the wall and you can shoot it as much as you want and don’t have to worry about hurting the value if it gets a scratch. The value of a restored or refinished gun depend on its looks. Someone can refinish a gun and it looks worse than if they left it alone. At gun shows I can spot most refinished guns one row way just from the shine, color and wavy metal work (overly buffed).
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Sharp: I reposted Rogers post because he explains it about as good of
explanation as I have found. I will try to address the term (converted) .
That one is a little tough. In most cases you will find that it will destroy
the collector value. But if you looking for something to shoot sometimes
things are a little different. I will give you an example. Years ago I took
in trade a Marlin 336 that had been rechambered to the 38-55 Marlin-
Ballard cartridge that was a very popular cartridge over 125 years ago.
Since the introduction of cowboy action shooting the 38- 55 has made a
comeback and is quite popular so I was able a couple of years ago to turn
a huge profit on a gun that I figured I would never be able to sell?????
IMHO I think though if I were to buy anything converted from one caliber
to another it would be for shooting only but that is just me.
Just for something to do go to Leroy Merz’s web site and check out the
Winchester 92 carbine that has been converted to 357 Mag.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom and experience. There’s obviously a lot that goes into knowing what’s what out there, and I’m a loooooong way from where you fellows are. I suppose I’ll make a few mis steps while I’m learning, but for now it seems that I’ll be better off staying away from pieces that seem a little too nice for the price. Shooters are fun, and they’ll likely be priced that way. Thanks again for your input. Jim
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