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August 6, 2023
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I’m hoping someone here may be able to help with some research I’m working on research involving a factory-engraved Winchester Model 1894.
Does anyone have access to Armax: The Journal of the Cody Firearms Museum, Volume V (1995)? I’m specifically looking for information contained in that volume relating to Winchester engraving and factory records. If someone has a copy and would be willing to check it for me, or provide scans/photos of the relevant pages, I would greatly appreciate the help.
I’m also interested in speaking with anyone who has done detailed research into documented factory-engraved Model 1894s.
I currently have a Cody factory letter on the rifle, as well as a letter from Pauline Muerrle, and I am waiting to hear back from the Cody Firearms Museum regarding additional research. I’m trying to assemble as much primary-source and well-documented information as possible.
If anyone has the Armax volume, has researched engraved 1894s extensively, or can point me toward additional original sources, I’d be very grateful to hear from you. Feel free to reply here or send me a private message.
Thank you in advance for any help.
April 15, 2005
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Olsoneo87 said
I’m hoping someone here may be able to help with some research I’m working on involving a factory-engraved Winchester Model 1894.
Does anyone have access to Armax: The Journal of the Cody Firearms Museum, Volume V (1995)? I’m specifically looking for information contained in that volume relating to Winchester engraving and factory records. If someone has a copy and would be willing to check it for me, or provide scans/photos of the relevant pages, I would greatly appreciate the help.
I’m also interested in speaking with anyone who has done detailed research into documented factory-engraved Model 1894s.
I currently have a Cody factory letter on the rifle, as well as a letter from Pauline Muerrle, and I am waiting to hear back from the Cody Firearms Museum regarding additional research. I’m trying to assemble as much primary-source and well-documented information as possible.
If anyone has the Armax volume, has researched engraved 1894s extensively, or can point me toward additional original sources, I’d be very grateful to hear from you. Feel free to reply here or send me a private message.
Thank you in advance for any help.
The ARMAX Vol V only lists the serial numbers of the (355) documented engraved Model 1894 rifles & carbines. There is no other information about them in the ARMAX.
What is the serial number on the Model 1894 you are researching?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 6, 2023
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Bert H. said
Olsoneo87 said
I’m hoping someone here may be able to help with some research I’m working on involving a factory-engraved Winchester Model 1894.
Does anyone have access to Armax: The Journal of the Cody Firearms Museum, Volume V (1995)? I’m specifically looking for information contained in that volume relating to Winchester engraving and factory records. If someone has a copy and would be willing to check it for me, or provide scans/photos of the relevant pages, I would greatly appreciate the help.
I’m also interested in speaking with anyone who has done detailed research into documented factory-engraved Model 1894s.
I currently have a Cody factory letter on the rifle, as well as a letter from Pauline Muerrle, and I am waiting to hear back from the Cody Firearms Museum regarding additional research. I’m trying to assemble as much primary-source and well-documented information as possible.
If anyone has the Armax volume, has researched engraved 1894s extensively, or can point me toward additional original sources, I’d be very grateful to hear from you. Feel free to reply here or send me a private message.
Thank you in advance for any help.
The ARMAX Vol V only lists the serial numbers of the (355) documented engraved Model 1894 rifles & carbines. There is no other information about them in the ARMAX.
What is the serial number on the Model 1894 you are researching?
Bert
Hey Bert, thanks for the reply. I am seeking the info pertaining to serial number 11793, but also how many were engraved in 1894 and also in 1895, and which number this gun was in the order of guns engraved. Thanks!
May 23, 2009
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Might seem like a stupid question. But if your planning on doing extensive research, Why not buy your own copy of the ARMAX book? It would be a nice piece to have with an factory engraved 94 rifle.
You are already onto THE primary-source of information and that’s Cody. Outside of the Cody Museum everything else such as written books on the subject would be biased towards whomever authored said book. For example, the Winchester Engraving book by R.L. Wilson. The good authors out there will have their information based off of Cody records, Herbert Houze comes to mind.
Other than factory documents, catalogs, and advertising I don’t know what else would be out there as far as meaningful research materials. The 1897 Highly Finished Arms Catalog being the most well known source of information.
If you could somehow find the original notes, manuscripts of the various factory engravers that engraved the various examples, that would be most helpful. But most likely unobtainable if they exist at all. For example, I think there are some of the original Ulrich smoke plates (smoke pulls a.k.a. smoke prints) in the Ulrich family collection. As to whom owns them currently, has copies of them, etc. Your guess is as good as mine. I think George Madis got permission to use some of them in his Winchester Book. Pauline may own some? But I don’t know that to be the case.
I can tell you this, if you wanting to research anything Winchester, don’t expect anything fast or timely. You will be in a long wait to say the least.
Sincerely,
Maverick
P.S. Best of Luck in your endeavor.
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
April 15, 2005
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The pictures below are scanned copies of the ARMAX list.
Serial number 11793 was the 13th engraved Model 1894. No Model 1894s were engraved in the year 1894, and just (19) in the year 1895.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 6, 2023
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Maverick said
Might seem like a stupid question. But if your planning on doing extensive research, Why not buy your own copy of the ARMAX book? It would be a nice piece to have with an factory engraved 94 rifle.
You are already onto THE primary-source of information and that’s Cody. Outside of the Cody Museum everything else such as written books on the subject would be biased towards whomever authored said book. For example, the Winchester Engraving book by R.L. Wilson. The good authors out there will have their information based off of Cody records, Herbert Houze comes to mind.
Other than factory documents, catalogs, and advertising I don’t know what else would be out there as far as meaningful research materials. The 1897 Highly Finished Arms Catalog being the most well known source of information.
If you could somehow find the original notes, manuscripts of the various factory engravers that engraved the various examples, that would be most helpful. But most likely unobtainable if they exist at all. For example, I think there are some of the original Ulrich smoke plates (smoke pulls a.k.a. smoke prints) in the Ulrich family collection. As to whom owns them currently, has copies of them, etc. Your guess is as good as mine. I think George Madis got permission to use some of them in his Winchester Book. Pauline may own some? But I don’t know that to be the case.
I can tell you this, if you wanting to research anything Winchester, don’t expect anything fast or timely. You will be in a long wait to say the least.
Sincerely,
Maverick
P.S. Best of Luck in your endeavor.
I have to laugh because you are spot on…I have purchased a copy of the book but I have no clue when it will arrive, and I am working on a display for this gun to be presented relatively soon, hence me asking on here.
I agree on all other fronts, and Pauline has already conformed that she doesn’t have any further information other than what she has given me. I think that Cody is my best bet for the full research, but for the purposes of my upcoming display, the info from the Armax info should suffice.
I appreciate your input and suggestions.
August 6, 2023
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Bert H. said
The pictures below are scanned copies of the ARMAX list.
Serial number 11793 was the 13th engraved Model 1894. No Model 1894s were engraved in the year 1894, and just (19) in the year 1895.
Bert
AWESOME!!! Thank you so much!!
May 23, 2009
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Bert H. said
The pictures below are scanned copies of the ARMAX list.
Serial number 11793 was the 13th engraved Model 1894. No Model 1894s were engraved in the year 1894, and just (19) in the year 1895.
Bert
Bert,
That assumes that they were engraved in the order by serial number sequence. But they may not have been.
To know for sure, you would have to know when each serial number was engraved. I suppose you could assume that by looking at when each serial number entered the warehouse. But even that maybe only when the entered the warehouse.
If we only had Ulrich’s, Gough’s, or whichever’s factory timesheets!
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
May 23, 2009
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I didn’t see the picture you posted when I first looked at the forum post.
Looks like you have the No. 10 style Engraving with “H” Style of Checking. So $5.00 of engraving and $5.00 of checkering. The list expensive style of engraving and checkering that Winchester offered in the 1897 Catalog. Here it is on pages 22 & 23. Typically you’ll see a game scene in the circle. But as the catalog states you could substitute it with “Initials in fine line engraving can be substituted for the animal, but there will be an extra charge for monograms.” So it looks like the original owner went with his Initials, As I don’t believe I would consider that a monogram.
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
April 15, 2005
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Maverick said
Bert H. said
The pictures below are scanned copies of the ARMAX list.
Serial number 11793 was the 13th engraved Model 1894. No Model 1894s were engraved in the year 1894, and just (19) in the year 1895.
Bert
Bert,
That assumes that they were engraved in the order by serial number sequence. But they may not have been.
To know for sure, you would have to know when each serial number was engraved. I suppose you could assume that by looking at when each serial number entered the warehouse. But even that maybe only when the entered the warehouse.
If we only had Ulrich’s, Gough’s, or whichever’s factory timesheets!
Sincerely,
Maverick
The information that I provided (from the ARMAX list) is close enough. In the case of engraved guns, the received in warehouse date would indeed be the order in which they were manufactured. Special order guns did not languish in the factory or warehouse.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 6, 2023
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Bert H. said
Maverick said
Bert H. said
The pictures below are scanned copies of the ARMAX list.
Serial number 11793 was the 13th engraved Model 1894. No Model 1894s were engraved in the year 1894, and just (19) in the year 1895.
Bert
Bert,
That assumes that they were engraved in the order by serial number sequence. But they may not have been.
To know for sure, you would have to know when each serial number was engraved. I suppose you could assume that by looking at when each serial number entered the warehouse. But even that maybe only when the entered the warehouse.
If we only had Ulrich’s, Gough’s, or whichever’s factory timesheets!
Sincerely,
Maverick
The information that I provided (from the ARMAX list) is close enough. In the case of engraved guns, the received in warehouse date would indeed be the order in which they were manufactured. Special order guns did not languish in the factory or warehouse.
PM sent Bert. Thanks for the help.
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