Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
Rebarreling of old 94's
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 12
Member Since:
March 21, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
April 1, 2018 - 1:50 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I’ve been learning a good bit about winchesters here. How common is the rebarreling of vintage 94’s ,and what is the most common reason? Changing to different cartridge or just worn out? 

Avatar
NY
Member
Restricted
Forum Posts: 7119
Member Since:
November 1, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
April 1, 2018 - 2:41 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Some were for sure rebarreled to change cartridge; I have a Low Wall originally in .22 Short rebarreled to .22LR–and I’m mighty glad that was done!

But between about 1900 and 1920, I suspect the majority of rebarrel jobs were the result of bore damage caused by the chlorate primers used in early smokeless.  Simultaneous with the introduction of smokeless appeared many oil & chemical based “nitro-solvent” bore cleaners which were supposed to eliminate the necessity of cleaning with water, as was done in the days of BP. Unfortunately, ONLY water would wash out the salts left by chlorate primers, the result being many badly pitted bores, sometimes after only a very few shots! Took at least a decade, however, before this fact became commonly known to average shooters.

Also have a rebarreled ’94 made in early 1900s, originally .30WCF and rebarreled to the same; I’m sure it’s one of those with a bore ruined by early smokeless.

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5712
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
April 1, 2018 - 2:58 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I have one older 1894 that was changed from 38-55 to 30WCF, I uderstand that was common for the era. I have a 38-55 that started out as a 32-40. I suspect the original bore was a victim of chlorite cancer. 

Can’t say I’ve seen many worn-out bores.

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Member
WACA Guest
Forum Posts: 12
Member Since:
March 21, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
April 1, 2018 - 4:10 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

That’s interesting I didn’t think about that. I did some reading about the various cartridges the 94’s were made in, appears those just mentioned and maybe another have the same rim diameter and close in length. I guess a 94 could be rebarreled in any of those without changing anything. I assume there are no markings on the receivers somewhere to indicate caliber, Winchester probably could manufacture one reciever for those.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4743
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
April 1, 2018 - 2:19 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

I’ve seen many 1894’s and 94’s rebarreled with M64 barrels.  Most often, ’94 receiver and buttstock with a complete M64 front end.  I’m not saying these were done at the factory and most of the ones I saw, it was obviously aftermarket. 

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4743
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
April 1, 2018 - 2:24 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Gringo said
That’s interesting I didn’t think about that. I did some reading about the various cartridges the 94’s were made in, appears those just mentioned and maybe another have the same rim diameter and close in length. I guess a 94 could be rebarreled in any of those without changing anything. I assume there are no markings on the receivers somewhere to indicate caliber, Winchester probably could manufacture one reciever for those.  

I’m not a gunsmith but seems I have heard before that sometimes some internal receiver parts (e.g. cartridge guides) need to be changed when going to and from certain cartridges.  This doesn’t make sense given Winchester made two-barrel sets of M1894’s (and some of these are in different cartridges).  Also, there is that one five barrel set (one in each cartridge) that sat up in Alaska for many years.  Might even still be there.

Avatar
South Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1062
Member Since:
March 20, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
April 1, 2018 - 3:55 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Barrels get swapped out for any number of reasons.  Back in the day, as well as now, you would swap out the barrel because either the bore was bad, crown was bad (either change barrel or cut the barrel), or you wanted to change the caliber.  This still rings true today but you also have to throw in the mix upgrading the chambering to something more desirable or collectible, or even considerations for a desirable barrel shape over another (oct vs 1/2 oct), swap out a cut or worn out barrel with something on hand, etc, or guns upgraded from parts guns.  Any number of reasons would apply. 

Depending on what the barrel is being swapped to, the cartridge guides may require changing to accommodate the new caliber:

35-55 SF: will feed all cartridge calibers
30-30 SF: will feed all cartridge calibers
32 WS:    will feed all cartridge calibers
32-40 SF: will feed only 32-40 or 25-35
25-35 SF: will feed only 25-35 or 32-40

There are a few caveats to this scenario–discussed on a prior forum post a couple years ago. 

DSC_0245-Copy-3.JPG

1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member

"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 11799
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
April 1, 2018 - 4:22 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Steve,

The five barrel set that was up in Alaska is a very nicely executed fake.  The work done to create it was superb, and undoubtedly it cost a fair amount of $$$$ to execute it, but it was just someone’s fantasy to have it built and display it.

The cartridge guides are interchangeable as follows;  (1) 38-55, 32 WS, & 30 WCF, and (2) 32-40 & 25-35 WCF.

Thus far, I have verified (surveyed) the existence of (123) multi-barrel Model 1894 Take Down rifles.  The tables below document the configuration by serial number;

Serial Number Caliber 1 Caliber 2 Caliber 3
7482 38-55 30 WCF  
9043 30 WCF 38-55  
9107 30 WCF NL  
15430 30 WCF 38-55  
15924 30 WCF 38-55  
17661 38-55 NL  
21538 30 WCF 38-55  
22563 38-55 30 WCF  
22995 30 WCF 38-55  
27264 30 WCF 38-55  
37607 38-55 30 WCF  
40728 38-55 30 WCF  
47144 30 WCF 38-55  
49972 30 WCF 38-55  
49980 38-55 30 WCF  
49983 30 WCF 38-55  
50020 30 WCF 30 WCF  
51510 38-55 30 WCF  
51668 25-35 WCF 32-40  
51707 25-35 WCF 32-40  
52521 38-55 30 WCF 30 WCF
52524 38-55 30 WCF 30 WCF
53460 38-55 30 WCF  
54159 38-55 30 WCF  
55038 30 WCF 38-55  
58299 30 WCF 38-55  
59697 38-55 30 WCF  
61462 30 WCF 38-55  
62646 30 WCF 38-55  
63261 25-35 32-40  
63438 30 WCF 38-55  
64281 30 WCF 38-55  
64871 30 WCF 38-55  
65193 30 WCF 38-55  
65696 30 WCF 38-55  
66028 38-55 38-55  
66111 38-55 30 WCF  
67724 30 WCF 38-55  
70685 30 WCF 38-55  
70687 30 WCF 38-55  
71031 30 WCF 38-55  
80578 38-55 38-55  
85445 30 WCF 38-55  
85448 30 WCF 38-55  
85677 30 WCF 38-55  
85810 25-35 WCF 32-40  
85983 25-35 WCF 32-40  
85993 25-35 WCF 32-40  
88976 38-55 30 WCF  
88981 32-40 25-35 WCF  
91496 30 WCF 38-55  
94840 30 WCF 38-55  
96990 30 WCF 30 WCF  
98579 30 WCF 38-55  
99227 30 WCF 38-55  
99587 30 WCF NL  
103874 25-35 WCF 32-40  
108723 38-55 30 WCF  
109191 25-35 WCF NL  
119850 30 WCF 38-55  
119956 30 WCF 38-55  
120280 30 WCF 38-55  
122496 30 WCF 38-55  
122537 30 WCF 38-55  
122575 30 WCF 38-55  
128279 30 WCF 38-55  
136640 30 WCF 38-55  
137440 30 WCF 38-55  
138234 30 WCF 32 WS  
143687 25-35 WCF 32-40  
143857 25-35 WCF 32-40  
145633 38-55 38-55  
145753 32 WS 38-55  
146480 30 WCF 38-55  
146484 25-35 WCF 32-40  
147743 30 WCF 38-55  
152861 30 WCF 38-55  
155883 25-35 WCF 32-40  
157332 25-35 WCF 32-40  
157693 38-55 32 WS  
167857 30 WCF 38-55  
169406 25-35 WCF 32-40  
179496 30 WCF 38-55  
183307 32 WS 38-55  
184027 30 WCF 38-55  
189417 30 WCF 32 WS  
192693 30 WCF 38-55  
196626 30 WCF 32 WS  
201586 25-35 WCF 32-40  
203065 30 WCF 38-55  
205072 38-55 32 WS  
206047 30 WCF 38-55  
211213 38-55 32 WS  
214117 38-55 32 WS  
214889 38-55 32 WS  
220323 38-55 32 WS  
223501 30 WCF 32 WS  
234594 25-35 WCF 32-40  
239662 38-55 32 WS  
240612 25-35 WCF 32-40  
246473 30 WCF 38-55  
249598 38-55 32 WS  
255072 32-40 32-40  
255582 38-55 32 WS  
285862 25-35 WCF 32-40  
296664 30 WCF 38-55  
297200 32-40 32-40 32-40
300748 38-55 38-55 38-55
301911 30 WCF 38-55  
304401 25-35 WCF 25-35 WCF  
305780 38-55 32 WS  
306620 30 WCF 38-55  
309461 32 WS 32 WS  
310636 25-35 WCF 32-40  
315612 38-55 32 WS  
319975 32-40 32-40  
320447 25-35 WCF 32-40  
321975 38-55 32 WS  
343888 30 WCF 32 WS  
443600 38-55 32 WS  
452166 38-55 32 WS  
457385 38-55 32 WS  
472906 38-55 30 WCF  

For the serial numbers that can be lettered, the “Caliber 1” column indicates which caliber is listed in the Caliber column in the factory warehouse ledger records, and the “Caliber 2” is the caliber listed in the Remarks column.  Thus far, there are (12) different configurations as shown in the following table;

12 Total Configurations
Caliber 1 Caliber 2 Caliber 3 Qty. %
25-35 WCF 25-35 WCF   1 0.813%
25-35 WCF 32-40   20 16.260%
30 WCF 30 WCF   2 1.626%
30 WCF 32 WS   5 4.065%
30 WCF 38-55   66 53.659%
32-40 32-40   3 2.439%
32-40 32-40 32-40 1 0.813%
32 WS 32 WS   1 0.813%
38-55 30 WCF 30 WCF 2 1.626%
38-55 32 WS   17 13.821%
38-55 38-55   4 3.252%
38-55 38-55 38-55 1 0.813%
         
Total     123 100%

 

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 4743
Member Since:
November 19, 2006
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
April 1, 2018 - 5:38 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Thanks Bert – fascinating information and tables.

On the five-barrel set, it certainly has a prominent place in Renneberg’s book on the Model 94.  However, I as I read Renneberg’s words of introduction to his presentation of this rifle, they now strike me as eerily prophetic:  “Here we have an unbelievable multi-barreled Model 1894 set….”  He also states, “It appears in every way to have been factory assembled ….”  I should have read more into those statements when I first read them.  Guess I missed what now seems an obvious wink.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 16
Member Since:
July 26, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
April 1, 2018 - 9:50 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I inhereted an early 1900’s 1894 in 30-30 that had been rebarreled with an army surplus springfield 30-06 barrel. my grandpa said it shot pretty good.

Avatar
Evan
Guest
WACA Guest
11
November 12, 2024 - 12:12 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

A little late to the party.. 

I have a very low SN Model 94. I have the factory letter from Cody Firearms and Winchester. The factory letter says 38-55 but I’ve always used 30 WCF in it. The serial number has a sort of off centered “R” next to it so I’m wondering if anyone knows what that means. Assuming rebarrelled which is how I got here. 

thanks in advance! 

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 11799
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
November 12, 2024 - 3:00 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Evan said
A little late to the party.. 

I have a very low SN Model 94. I have the factory letter from Cody Firearms and Winchester. The factory letter says 38-55 but I’ve always used 30 WCF in it. The serial number has a sort of off centered “R” next to it so I’m wondering if anyone knows what that means. Assuming rebarrelled which is how I got here. 

thanks in advance! 

Can you post (or send me) a clear picture of the serial number marking you mention?  Is the receiver frame a 1st variation or a second variation?

Bert – [email protected]

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5117
Member Since:
March 31, 2009
sp_UserOnlineSmall Online
13
November 13, 2024 - 5:39 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Evan said
A little late to the party.. 

I have a very low SN Model 94. I have the factory letter from Cody Firearms and Winchester. The factory letter says 38-55 but I’ve always used 30 WCF in it. The serial number has a sort of off centered “R” next to it so I’m wondering if anyone knows what that means. Assuming rebarrelled which is how I got here. 

thanks in advance! 

  

The 30 WCF case is shorter than the 38-55 case.  The bullet is smaller in diameter, so I guess it would load.  How does it shoot and does the case change dimensions after shooting?

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5712
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
November 14, 2024 - 3:48 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Evan said
A little late to the party.. 

I have a very low SN Model 94. I have the factory letter from Cody Firearms and Winchester. The factory letter says 38-55 but I’ve always used 30 WCF in it. The serial number has a sort of off centered “R” next to it so I’m wondering if anyone knows what that means. Assuming rebarrelled which is how I got here. 

thanks in advance! 

  

Evan-

It’s my understanding some 38-55’s were re-barreled to 30WCF but I haven’t seen any. If it shoots well with modern 30-30 ammo it’s a safe bet the barrel has been changed. Barrel marking may be helpful for our experts.

 

Mike 

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 4623
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 7119
TXGunNut: 5712
Chuck: 5117
steve004: 4743
1873man: 4507
Big Larry: 2463
twobit: 2372
mrcvs: 1985
TR: 1802
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 18
Topics: 13675
Posts: 120737

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1929
Members: 9388
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation