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Quite the M1873 Exhibition rifle coming up at Rock Island
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March 21, 2021 - 1:29 am
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Yes

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Researching the Winchester 1873's

73_86cutaway.jpg

Email: [email protected]

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March 21, 2021 - 4:34 am
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I’m done with RIA!  Not that I ever won anything from them to begin with.

Between the shill bidding and folks with deep wallets but not enough sense to actually research what they are bidding on, it’s a waste of my time to even peruse their auction catalogue.

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March 21, 2021 - 9:53 am
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March 21, 2021 - 1:48 pm
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If you are in the market for a rifle like this, more often than not, your only option will be a big auction house.  I’m often reminded of the quote from Tommy Rholes – from probably 40 years ago – about the big auction houses ruining collecting.

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March 21, 2021 - 2:06 pm
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Yes I agree Steve. Corporate America?

I owned two carbines from Tommy Rholes collection I acquired via Henry Mero. Wish I kept them now. 32-40 & 25-35 SRC’s. Just standard configuration no special order stuff. I’ve seemed to acquire a taste for rare, rarer, scarce, etc mostly over condition(although the ones I kept are all in VG condition), but wish I had Tommy’s 32-40 src still in the stable.

RickC

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March 21, 2021 - 2:30 pm
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mrcvs said
I’m done with RIA!  Not that I ever won anything from them to begin with.

Between the shill bidding and folks with deep wallets but not enough sense to actually research what they are bidding on, it’s a waste of my time to even peruse their auction catalogue.  

I have worked at RIA for a short time some years ago and I attend the auction in person when ever I want something. There is no 
“shill bidding” going on. But there are alot of deep pockets. Most of the high dollar stuff is won over the phone. Since  they started adding sales tax it is an extremely expensive place to buy guns. 18% buyers fee and 7% sales tax plus shipping for those of you that can’t pick these up in person. I save 3% by paying cash, but it’s still expensive. The upside is you’ll have a shot at things you won’t see anywhere else….it’s only money.Laugh

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March 21, 2021 - 2:50 pm
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My thoughts on seeing that engraved 1873 recently discovered in France are its a miracle it is still here.  It survived two world wars and the German occupation of France.  It didn’t end up in a high ranking Nazi’s collection nor was it discovered by a GI and returned to the US like some other guns after the end of WWII.  A beautiful rifle,  I’m sure it will be the pride of the next owner’s collection.

I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder

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March 21, 2021 - 3:04 pm
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This is from their terms of service.

13. BIDS OF CONSIGNORS. Consignors, other than RIAC, are not allowed to bid on their own merchandise nor have any agent bid on their behalf. If the Auctioneer recognizes such bidding or is advised of same, the Auctioneer reserves the right to withdraw any or all items consigned by the offending consignor. It is not prohibited conduct under this Section 13 when an Auctioneer bids on behalf of the consignor to reach the reserve price as provided In Section 12 above.

Bob

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March 21, 2021 - 3:15 pm
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1873man said
This is from their terms of service.

13. BIDS OF CONSIGNORS. Consignors, other than RIAC, are not allowed to bid on their own merchandise nor have any agent bid on their behalf. If the Auctioneer recognizes such bidding or is advised of same, the Auctioneer reserves the right to withdraw any or all items consigned by the offending consignor. It is not prohibited conduct under this Section 13 when an Auctioneer bids on behalf of the consignor to reach the reserve price as provided In Section 12 above.

Bob  

Very interesting that they can bid it up to the reserve.  Particularly as I believe, the reserve is not disclosed – at least until it is hit.  So for a portion of the auction, a bidder may not know if they are bidding against other bidders or the auctioneer.  This might be more apparent if one is attending in person, but if a person is phone or internet bidding, I don’t see how they would know.

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March 21, 2021 - 4:24 pm
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1873man said
This is from their terms of service.

13. BIDS OF CONSIGNORS. Consignors, other than RIAC, are not allowed to bid on their own merchandise nor have any agent bid on their behalf. If the Auctioneer recognizes such bidding or is advised of same, the Auctioneer reserves the right to withdraw any or all items consigned by the offending consignor. It is not prohibited conduct under this Section 13 when an Auctioneer bids on behalf of the consignor to reach the reserve price as provided In Section 12 above.

Yup, legitimized shill bidding.

There ARE other auction houses out there.

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March 21, 2021 - 6:04 pm
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mrcvs said

1873man said
This is from their terms of service.

13. BIDS OF CONSIGNORS. Consignors, other than RIAC, are not allowed to bid on their own merchandise nor have any agent bid on their behalf. If the Auctioneer recognizes such bidding or is advised of same, the Auctioneer reserves the right to withdraw any or all items consigned by the offending consignor. It is not prohibited conduct under this Section 13 when an Auctioneer bids on behalf of the consignor to reach the reserve price as provided In Section 12 above.

Yup, legitimized shill bidding.

There ARE other auction houses out there.  

They all do this. RIA at least has the nutz to admit it.  I have only been aware of this once at RIA. It was in the past year and at the close of the auction it was announced as a no sale as the item didn’t meet the reserve. They actually make an announcement of this practice at the beginning of the auction every day if you’re there in person. Reserves are rare according to them. I got no dog in this fight, if it upsets you you should not bid at RIA, it leaves more toys for me that way!Laugh

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March 21, 2021 - 6:04 pm
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  If the meaning of shill bidding is someone sitting on the floor bidding on the behalf of the auction company, then I would say no. When the auctioneer pulls bids out of the air what is that? If when you make a phone bid and give the person on the other end your max bid, is that info given to the auctioneer? If the auction company buys the collection and sells it for themselves, what is that? If when I watch an auction on line and see the idem marked sold and later listed on the prices realized as a blank line, what is that? If you play the game know the rules! T/R  

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March 21, 2021 - 6:18 pm
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TR said
  If the meaning of shill bidding is someone sitting on the floor bidding on the behalf of the auction company, then I would say no. When the auctioneer pulls bids out of the air what is that? If when you make a phone bid and give the person on the other end your max bid, is that info given to the auctioneer? If the auction company buys the collection and sells it for themselves, what is that? If when I watch an auction on line and see the idem marked sold and later listed on the prices realized as a blank line, what is that? If you play the game know the rules! T/R    

There are no rules.  It is whatever the Auction House can get away with.  I know a few auction house owners and have heard stories that you can’t imagine.  Most of the larger auction house owners or managers have been in the business for 40 years or more.  They all know each other or worked with each other. Believe me you are at their advantage.

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March 21, 2021 - 6:31 pm
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I’ve never bought a firearm at an auction. Am I losing out on multiple chances to own unique firearms not usually for sale elsewhere? Possibly. But I can live with that.
Anyway too many people with deeper pockets than mine at those auctions & not in hand is not my thing so I’m always just a bystander. The majority of my high condition or high value rare acquisitions are from a few of the other WACA members here who’ve gained my trust.

RickC

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March 21, 2021 - 7:46 pm
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 Chuck, I like your statement, “There are no rules.”, well said! I might add, Dancing with the devil, I still buy there. T/R

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March 21, 2021 - 8:28 pm
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Can’t say I’ve ever bought from a big auction house but a few in my stable have crossed the block before I owned them, at least one after. I really enjoy seeing the guns they offer even if I am not a prospective buyer. I know they can get you a good price for an unusual item, mostly likely better than a private sale but all that marketing and logistics costs money and they’re in it to make money. Outside of a museum or a serious collection you won’t see finer items and if your pockets are deep enough you may get to buy them. A buyer has one job: know what you’re buying.

 

Mike

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March 21, 2021 - 8:33 pm
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Here’s the thing about auctions. You ALWAYS pay more for an item than it’s worth by one bid. With the internet These auctions are world wide now and you’re competing against everyone in the entire world that is interested in the same item that you’re bidding on. If you win the item you paid one bid more than everybody else in the whole world.

 I remember back in the early 90’s I got some hellish good deals at RIA when they were still small potatoes. Today what they give me is variety. I can’t find Winchesters that I can see and examine in hand  in  numbers like I can at RIA. Of course living close by certainly is a bonus.

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March 21, 2021 - 9:43 pm
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Brooksy said
Here’s the thing about auctions. You ALWAYS pay more for an item than it’s worth by one bid. With the internet These auctions are world wide now and you’re competing against everyone in the entire world that is interested in the same item that you’re bidding on. If you win the item you paid one bid more than everybody else in the whole world.

 

Brooksy – I can’t agree with you on this.  Many times I see the big auction house winners are dealers and speculators.  Leroy Merz has historically purchased a lot at the big auctions – and he then marks the items up substantially higher than what he paid (which of course, is what dealers do).  I’ve seen Larry Orr and others do this as well.  It doesn’t make a lot of sense, but they wouldn’t do it if they didn’t make money at it.  

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March 21, 2021 - 10:10 pm
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steve004 said

Brooksy said
Here’s the thing about auctions. You ALWAYS pay more for an item than it’s worth by one bid. With the internet These auctions are world wide now and you’re competing against everyone in the entire world that is interested in the same item that you’re bidding on. If you win the item you paid one bid more than everybody else in the whole world.
 

Brooksy – I can’t agree with you on this.  Many times I see the big auction house winners are dealers and speculators.  Leroy Merz has historically purchased a lot at the big auctions – and he then marks the items up substantially higher than what he paid (which of course, is what dealers do).  I’ve seen Larry Orr and others do this as well.  It doesn’t make a lot of sense, but they wouldn’t do it if they didn’t make money at it.    

You’re absolutely right. I have checked his website and others and can’t swallow those prices. But, they make a living at it….Last RIA auction I was chatting up Merz’s buyer. So, he can buy the guns and pay somebody to go out and do the buying for him too.  What Am I doing wrong?Laugh

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