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This Gunbroker seller has some very unusual items. The pictures, particularly the caliber markings, seem pretty questionable. Check his other items, too. Not sure Winchester would have been making some of these calibers this late in production.
You’d think a custom-shop gun would be made up as a Super Grade. Who’d want a 70 in an obsolete BP chambering anyway?
Some rare calibers. I would love to hear what the model 70 experts have to say about these.
clarence said
Who’d want a 70 in an obsolete BP chambering anyway?
The 38-55 was not a “BP” cartridge for the last 40+ years that Winchester manufactured and loaded ammo for it. Like most other old Winchester cartridges, it started out as a black powder cartridge but begin the transition to smokeless powder in the latter 1890s. By the early 1900s, the 38-55 was almost exclusively a smokeless powder load. Winchester proofed all of the Model 1894 rifles chambered for it with smokeless loads.
It was in January 1938 when Winchester discontinued manufacturing new rifles in both the 32-40 and 38-55 cartridges. Winchester did eventually resume manufacturing Model 94 (commemoratives) in the 38-55 cartridge.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
sb said
This Gunbroker seller has some very unusual items. The pictures, particularly the caliber markings, seem pretty questionable. Check his other items, too. Not sure Winchester would have been making some of these calibers this late in production.
Without any concrete proof to the contrary, it would be both safe & wise to assume that the rifle in question is a Fake.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
A friend of mine looked at the .32 W/S rifle, and told me that he could not find anything wrong with it. I would think that they came out of the same collection. He sold a 9M/M Standard rifle earlier. The .358 Standard rifle is a rare bird. But the lever action calibers interest me. .219 Zipper, .32 W/S, and .38-55. I have seen a Zipper before, but the other two…..never. They all were made uncataloged in the Model 54. So, I guess it is possible that someone could of ordered them. If he had the chamberings already in a Model 94, or 64 I could see were this might be of interest. There are some things that I would need to confirm before I would make a yeah or nay on them.
November 5, 2014
Offline
All-
I prefer NOT to comment on the plethora of “unicorn” M70s appearing over the past few years beyond saying, as I have said before, that the number of these rifles appearing over the past 5-6 years is vastly higher than the number of such rifles recorded by Bob Porter over the period from 1975-2010 when he was writing down M70s he saw at the “big shows”…
If someone is interested in buying one of these, I am willing to discuss an individual rifle PRIVATELY, including whether or not the particular serial number has been recorded previously (in survey data I hold)… 
To publicly post “personal opinion” as “fact” (without “proof” to court standards) borders on libel… Even a “prior record” of a S/N as something else isn’t sufficient “proof” to discredit a gun since the S/N may have been written down in error… To me, it’s a huge “red flag”… But it’s not “proof”…
Maybe I’ve been reading Zeb’s posts too much!!! You know how LAWYERS are!!! 
In general, and WADR to Roger Rule and Dean Whitaker, in the past few years I have seen (and in most cases handled) M70s in almost every “uncataloged” chambering listed in their books, and a great many more (like 38-55). The only one in Rule’s book I haven’t seen (yet) is a 275 H&H Magnum (and I would not be surprised if one “surfaced” in the next RIA auction). IMHO the barrel markings on the subject rifle(s) are much better than the easy-to-detect fakes out there. At least most of these are marked with roll dies, not laser engraved or rotary pantograph. Either genuine Winchester dies or VERY good copies (IMHO).
Do I think any of them are “real”??? NO COMMENT… But I will not be buying…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Bo Rich said
So, I guess it is possible that someone could of ordered them. If he had the chamberings already in a Model 94, or 64 I could see were this might be of interest.
It’s even more likely that someone decided to create an “instant collectable” by faking Model 70s in those lever action calibers. Given the stratospheric prices achieved by Model 70 rifles in rare calibers, and the veritable cottage industry that has arisen to fake those rare rifles, I would assume the rifles in question are guilty as fakes until proven innocent by corroborating documentary evidence. But if someone has money to burn, and more dollars than sense, here is a chance to get rid of a lot of extra money.
BRP
Bert H. said
The 38-55 was not a “BP” cartridge for the last 40+ years that Winchester manufactured and loaded ammo for it.
So what if it was loaded with smokeless, it was a smokeless loading that would not exceed BP pressure & performance, exactly like .45 Colt & all the other BP cartridges loaded with smokeless. Even the High-Speed loading was no powerhouse.
clarence said
Bert H. said
The 38-55 was not a “BP” cartridge for the last 40+ years that Winchester manufactured and loaded ammo for it.
So what if it was loaded with smokeless, it was a smokeless loading that would not exceed BP pressure & performance, exactly like .45 Colt & all the other BP cartridges loaded with smokeless. Even the High-Speed loading was no powerhouse.
The fellow who ordered the one in .32 Special was more forward thinking
November 7, 2015
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Excellent eye candy opportunity. Nice wood! Very attractive and in a caliber I enjoy. Classic features. IF this rifle is not genuine I think we need to take note of the high level of craftsmanship. Did I mention I like the wood? I’m only aware of two problems with this rifle: 1) too good to be true, 2) I can’t afford it. There may be other issues but this batter is “out” with two strikes.
Mike
November 7, 2015
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steve004 said
clarence said
Bert H. said
The 38-55 was not a “BP” cartridge for the last 40+ years that Winchester manufactured and loaded ammo for it.
So what if it was loaded with smokeless, it was a smokeless loading that would not exceed BP pressure & performance, exactly like .45 Colt & all the other BP cartridges loaded with smokeless. Even the High-Speed loading was no powerhouse.
The fellow who ordered the one in .32 Special was more forward thinking
Especially if he ordered a sister rifle in 35 Remington.
Mike
TXGunNut said
steve004 said
clarence said
Bert H. said
The 38-55 was not a “BP” cartridge for the last 40+ years that Winchester manufactured and loaded ammo for it.
So what if it was loaded with smokeless, it was a smokeless loading that would not exceed BP pressure & performance, exactly like .45 Colt & all the other BP cartridges loaded with smokeless. Even the High-Speed loading was no powerhouse.
The fellow who ordered the one in .32 Special was more forward thinking
Especially if he ordered a sister rifle in 35 Remington.
Mike
Enough of this obsolete stuff from the past – just give me one in .300 Savage!
November 7, 2015
Offline
steve004 said
TXGunNut said
steve004 said
clarence said
Bert H. said
The 38-55 was not a “BP” cartridge for the last 40+ years that Winchester manufactured and loaded ammo for it.
So what if it was loaded with smokeless, it was a smokeless loading that would not exceed BP pressure & performance, exactly like .45 Colt & all the other BP cartridges loaded with smokeless. Even the High-Speed loading was no powerhouse.
The fellow who ordered the one in .32 Special was more forward thinking
Especially if he ordered a sister rifle in 35 Remington.
Mike
Enough of this obsolete stuff from the past – just give me one in .300 Savage!
Just sold off my 300 Savage rifle, dies, brass and ammo. It was fun but lost interest. Probably have a mould or two suitable for that cartridge but they joined the other shiny bits that make me smile…in storage.
Mike
Louis Luttrell said
All-I prefer NOT to comment on the plethora of “unicorn” M70s appearing over the past few years beyond saying, as I have said before, that the number of these rifles appearing over the past 5-6 years is vastly higher than the number of such rifles recorded by Bob Porter over the period from 1975-2010 when he was writing down M70s he saw at the “big shows”…
If someone is interested in buying one of these, I am willing to discuss an individual rifle PRIVATELY, including whether or not the particular serial number has been recorded previously (in survey data I hold)…
Maybe I’ve been reading Zeb’s posts too much!!! You know how LAWYERS are!!!
In general, and WADR to Roger Rule and Dean Whitaker, in the past few years I have seen (and in most cases handled) M70s in almost every “uncataloged” chambering listed in their books, and a great many more (like 38-55). The only one in Rule’s book I haven’t seen (yet) is a 275 H&H Magnum (and I would not be surprised if one “surfaced” in the next RIA auction). IMHO the barrel markings on the subject rifle(s) are much better than the easy-to-detect fakes out there. At least most of these are marked with roll dies, not laser engraved or rotary pantograph. Either genuine Winchester dies or VERY good copies (IMHO).
Do I think any of them are “real”??? NO COMMENT… But I will not be buying…
Best,
Lou
Lou, even though your professional antecedents were bleeding King George with leeches while mine were drafting our Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights, what youve just written is sound and prudent along with it.
Backing someone into a corner publicly by impugning his/her/its reputation for honest commercial dealing, is a serious act not to be done lightly. When you publish an accusation (explicit or plainly implicit) that someone is committing commercial fraud, which can be a felony, and get sued for libel for it, in most jurisdictions the plaintiff doesn’t have to prove you acted with actual malice, which can be tough to prove otherwise. Malice is presumed. This is ungood for the defendant.
Conversely, when you sue somebody for libel you invite them to prove the accusation is true, and give them the opportunity, subpoena power and discovery tools to do so. This is often doubleplusungood for the plaintiff.
En boca cerrada, no entran moscas. As we say in Texas. My still-practicing brethren and sistren of the Bar are the only ones who consistently make money at the courthouse.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
TXGunNut said
steve004 said
TXGunNut said
steve004 said
clarence said
Bert H. said
The 38-55 was not a “BP” cartridge for the last 40+ years that Winchester manufactured and loaded ammo for it.
So what if it was loaded with smokeless, it was a smokeless loading that would not exceed BP pressure & performance, exactly like .45 Colt & all the other BP cartridges loaded with smokeless. Even the High-Speed loading was no powerhouse.
The fellow who ordered the one in .32 Special was more forward thinking
Especially if he ordered a sister rifle in 35 Remington.
Mike
Enough of this obsolete stuff from the past – just give me one in .300 Savage!
Just sold off my 300 Savage rifle, dies, brass and ammo. It was fun but lost interest. Probably have a mould or two suitable for that cartridge but they joined the other shiny bits that make me smile…in storage.
Mike
I still have several .300 Savages… but none are M70’s 
Let me add, I have several .38-55’s…. but none are M70’s
It just seems odd to me that someone would fake a Model 70 in .38-55. It is so unusual that you would think that the Collector who would buy it would go over it with a fine tooth comb before he would shell out his hard earned money. I am not saying that the gun is right or wrong. Like I said earlier I would have to examine it before I came up with a conclusion.
Mr. Barnum likely had the answer to that question.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
Mr. Barnum likely had the answer to that question.
Yep.
There is one born every second.
BRP
Bo Rich said It is so unusual that you would think that the Collector who would buy it would go over it with a fine tooth comb before he would shell out his hard earned money.
Rock Island sales of numerous falsely-described guns demonstrate the contrary. And fat-cat “collectors” seem to be the least discriminating.
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