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Question about museum ledger
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March 12, 2021 - 2:48 am
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Here is a page from the museum ledger (for Winchester single-shots):

https://www.wyomingpublicmedia.org/post/museum-minute-winchester-archives#stream/0

I was intrigued by line 33.  It appears to be listed as, .35 caliber with a 34 inch barrel.  I wish I could decipher all that is written on that line.  I have never seen a single shot, .35 WCF with a 34 inch barrel – seems unlikely.  

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March 12, 2021 - 3:03 am
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Steve,

Its a 34″ Round #2  barrel with plain trigger, fancy checked stock, Swiss butt, Graduated peep fitted to butt of stock, graduated peep to tang, blank in rear seat and wind gauge front. The red writing looks like a R&R.

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March 12, 2021 - 3:22 am
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1873man said
Steve,

Its a 34″ Round #2  barrel with plain trigger, fancy checked stock, Swiss butt, Graduated peep fitted to butt of stock, graduated peep to tang, blank in rear seat and wind gauge front. The red writing looks like a R&R.

Bob  

Bob – Thanks.  You have much more experience with reading the ledgers than I do.  So, it is a .35 WCF with a 34 inch barrel?  

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March 12, 2021 - 3:37 am
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The only 35 caliber I’m aware of which was a 95 caliber and its a 34″

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steve004 said

Bob – Thanks.  You have much more experience with reading the ledgers than I do.

After read thousands of ledger entries you start to recognize the pattern of the abbreviations and you don’t have to make out the individual letters. Bert might read it and see something I misinterpreted. This is the first time I read a 85 ledger page and find it nice to see a lot of sights listed where the 73’s didn’t record that many sights. I’m reading some entries on that page what I think is ” Dutch cheek piece” which I haven’t seen in the 73’s

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March 12, 2021 - 5:34 am
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steve004 said
Here is a page from the museum ledger (for Winchester single-shots):

https://www.wyomingpublicmedia.org/post/museum-minute-winchester-archives#stream/0

I was intrigued by line 33.  It appears to be listed as, .35 caliber with a 34 inch barrel.  I wish I could decipher all that is written on that line.  I have never seen a single shot, .35 WCF with a 34 inch barrel – seems unlikely.    

Steve,

This is my interpretation of what is in that record entry;

Received in warehouse:  Aug 22/2 (1902)

Style: R (Rifle)

Caliber: 35 (unknown, but the 35 WCF was the only cartridge in that caliber)

Barrel: R (Round)

Trigger: P (Plain)

Length: 34  2 (34″, size #2)

Additional Description and Notation: Fancy CS (Checkered Stock), SB (Shotgun Butt), Peep fitted to Butt of stock, Grad peep to tang, Blank in rear seat, Wd ga ft (wind-gauge front sight), R&R 2/29/16 73988 (return & repair & work order number)

Sold: Dec 22/2

Order: 173178

This would have been a “one-of-a-kind” rifle, special ordered for long range target/competition shooting.

Bert

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March 12, 2021 - 5:53 am
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1873man said

steve004 said

Bob – Thanks.  You have much more experience with reading the ledgers than I do.

After read thousands of ledger entries you start to recognize the pattern of the abbreviations and you don’t have to make out the individual letters. Bert might read it and see something I misinterpreted. This is the first time I read a 85 ledger page and find it nice to see a lot of sights listed where the 73’s didn’t record that many sights. I’m reading some entries on that page what I think is ” Dutch cheek piece” which I haven’t seen in the 73’s

Bob  

Bob,

You were very close.  In the Single Shot records, “SB” is the abbreviation for Shotgun Butt.  When a Swiss butt was ordered, they listed it as “Swiss butt” or “Swiss Plate” (see entries 83, 85, and 88). 

It is very common to see sights recorded in the Single Shot records, unlike the lever-action models.

The “Dutch cheek piece” entry was very common for the Schuetzen Rifles.  For the Special Single Shot Rifles, the entries usually read “Swiss butt & cheek piece”.

Dutch-Cheek-Piece.jpgImage EnlargerSwiss-Cheek-Piece.jpgImage Enlarger

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March 12, 2021 - 1:07 pm
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Bob and Bert – thank you again for your observations and comments.  Am I do understand that the rifle was equipped with a heel mounted sight for prone, “toes forward” shooting??  How often do we see the single-shot equipped with such a sight?  And, the .35 WF still catches my attention! Cool

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March 12, 2021 - 1:42 pm
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steve004 said
 And, the .35 WF still catches my attention! Cool  

Barnes has 1903 as intro of .35, 1902 for .33.  Misprint?

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March 12, 2021 - 2:51 pm
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clarence said

Barnes has 1903 as intro of .35, 1902 for .33.  Misprint?  

This single-shot was sold December 22, 1902 – so I am speculating they were manufacturing rifles in .35 WCF by that date.  This might be one of the earliest in that chambering?  I am also thinking the ledgers entries for the Model 1895 are missing by the time 1902 came along – so we don’t know the shipment date of the first .35 Model 1895?  

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March 12, 2021 - 3:04 pm
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steve004 said
Bob and Bert – thank you again for your observations and comments.  Am I do understand that the rifle was equipped with a heel mounted sight for prone, “toes forward” shooting??  How often do we see the single-shot equipped with such a sight?  And, the .35 WF still catches my attention! Cool  

Yes, that rifle was equipped with a “heel” mounted Graduated Peep sight, and a second one was mounted on the tang in its usual location.  Based on the caliber entry in the ledger record, we should not assume that it is the 35 “WCF” cartridge.  It may have been a custom ordered barrel with a .35 caliber bore diameter.  As Clarence pointed out, the manufacture date of this rifle precedes the introduction of the 35 WCF cartridge.

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March 12, 2021 - 3:08 pm
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steve004 said

This single-shot was sold December 22, 1902 – so I am speculating they were manufacturing rifles in .35 WCF by that date.  This might be one of the earliest in that chambering?  I am also thinking the ledgers entries for the Model 1895 are missing by the time 1902 came along – so we don’t know the shipment date of the first .35 Model 1895?    

Steve,

I would not make that speculation.  Additionally, the ledger records for the Model 1895 are intact through S/N 59999 (late 1907).

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March 12, 2021 - 3:16 pm
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Bert H. said

Steve,

I would not make that speculation.  Additionally, the ledger records for the Model 1895 are intact through S/N 59999 (late 1907).  

All extremely interesting.  If it was a special order .35 caliber (e.g. “a wildcat”) one really wonders what it was.  And of course, the intrigue – is the rifle still in existence?  And… was it actually used in competition… who was the shooter… was this the only rifle produced in this chambering… 

Do we know when the first M1895 was manufactured in .35 WCF?  

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March 12, 2021 - 3:22 pm
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Another Ledger question on a single-shot:

Line 21 – a .32-20, “Mark Daisy” – does this mean it was shipped to Australia?

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March 12, 2021 - 3:29 pm
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Yet another question –

I see on this ledger page (1902) there are some rifles shipped as .30 US – which I assume of course is .30-40.  Also, there are several .30 Gov listed.  This would be the .30-03?  Which, I recall was introduced in 1903 with the New 1903 Springfield rifle?  How would Winchester have had this cartridge so early?  And, I’m just looking a one ledger page.  For all I know, the .30 Gov appeared on ledger pages prior to this page.

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March 12, 2021 - 3:43 pm
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steve004 said
Another Ledger question on a single-shot:

Line 21 – a .32-20, “Mark Daisy” – does this mean it was shipped to Australia?  

Yes it does… specifically it was shipped to F. Lassetter & Company.

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steve004 said
Yet another question –

I see on this ledger page (1902) there are some rifles shipped as .30 US – which I assume of course is .30-40.  Also, there are several .30 Gov listed.  This would be the .30-03?  Which, I recall was introduced in 1903 with the New 1903 Springfield rifle?  How would Winchester have had this cartridge so early?  And, I’m just looking a one ledger page.  For all I know, the .30 Gov appeared on ledger pages prior to this page.  

The entry “30 Gov” is also the 30-40 Krag.  This is one of the many instances where different Winchester warehouse employees used differing nomenclature for the same cartridge.  The barrels were marked “30 U.S.” but were very frequently entered in the ledger as “30 Gov” or “30 Govt”, as well as “30 US”.  This situation is one of the reasons why it took me more than 10-years to record and decipher all of the actual calibers & cartridges listed in the records!

The 30-03 Government was a rimless cartridge, and therefore not capable of being chambered in a Single Shot action due to the extractor type needed.

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March 12, 2021 - 4:31 pm
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Bert – 

Again, very helpful clarifying information.  I can see why it took ten years to decipher the ledger entries.  By the way, what’s your sense of how often the presence of a heel-mounted sight is noted in the ledgers?  

As some here know, I have a tangent interest in Ross rifles which includes their .280 Ross heel-sighted target rifles. These Ross rifles may have been used in competition against the Winchester single-shot we’ve been discussing. These three were made prior to 1910:

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March 12, 2021 - 4:37 pm
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Steve,

I do not know how many Single Shot rifles may have been factory equipped with a heel mounted peep sight, but suspect it is no more than a handful. Most likely more of them were installed in the “aftermarket”.

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March 12, 2021 - 5:50 pm
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 I find all of this thread very interesting, my question though is a basic one for sure. Where do I find a copy of the ledgers you fellows are discussing??? Is there an online source? If so how can I access it? ConfusedConfused

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