Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
November 5, 2014
Offline
I have a question regarding the style of telescope sight mounting blocks used by the Winchester factory on Bull Guns.
I have always assumed that all Winchester M70 target styles (National Match, Target Rifle, and Bull Gun) used the same “Lyman” type telescope sight blocks that are concave on top to facilitate use of metallic sights, the only difference being the height of the front block. According to the 1939 Winchester Catalog of Component Parts: National Match 0.470”; Target Rifle 0.360”; Bull Gun 0.262” (as in the first photo attached).
As it happens, I have two pre-war Bull Guns; S/N 22353 (1938) in .300 MAGNUM, and S/N 45937 (1942) in .30 GOV’T ’06. Both rifles, when I acquired them, had all of the expected components; Lyman 77R front sight, Lyman 48WH receiver sights, Bakelite hand stop, etc., BUT the telescope sight bases (which were the correct height for a Bull Gun) were flat on top like the Unertl B-70 base (as in the photo of S/N 22353 attached).
So I’ve assumed that these Bull Guns had their telescope sight bases replaced at some point.
Then… I happened to notice Photo 9-15 in Dean Whittaker’s M70 book (copy attached), which shows a Model 70 Bull Gun S/N 44342. While the author does not say the gun is “new condition”, the fact that there is a hanging tag in the photo suggests that this is a factory unaltered original gun. The telescope sight base is the flat topped “Unertl” type, just like my two Bull Guns.
So… Question for the expert M70 collectors. Did Winchester ever use Unertl type telescopic sight blocks on M70 Bull Guns? Or are they all replaced?
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou, interesting observation. I have a near mint early Bull, s/n 11543 with similar base, which like you had always assumed was aftermarket. I also have a later Bull in the 531XXX range that has a similar base. One thing I noticed on the one you have pictured is that it has 2 detent dimples on the LH side for use with the early Winchester scopes. I do not recall seeing these on the aftermarket bases such as Unertl. This would lead me to believe they are probably original Winchester manufactured parts. All 52 target scope bases had the same dimple up into the ’50’s. I will check 11543 tonight to see if it has the dimples as well. Also, most aftermarket bases had some type of identification number on the bottom side. Have you checked your base for this?
Steve
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Steve-
As yet I have not pulled the base off of the rifle. As you state, the aftermarket Unertl B70 base I showed for comparison in the top photo is clearly marked “B-70” on the bottom and does not have “dimples”.
The two visible differences between the aftermarket Unertl and the base on the Bull Gun are: 1) the presence of “Winchester dimples”; and 2) the base is a bit shorter in overall length than the Unertl. If you look at both the photo of my rifle and the photo from Whittaker, compared to the B-70 base in the top photo, it’s clear that the ends of the aftermarket base protrude a bit farther out front and rear from the attachment screws. The base on the Bull Gun is the same overall length as the usual “Lyman type” bases (maybe .125″ shorter in overall length than the Unertl B-70).
I’d appreciate knowing if your early pre-war Bull Gun has the “dimples”. Certainly the Model 52s used bases that were flat on top, so I would consider possible that some of the M70 bases used by Winchester (at least some of the .262″ height ones) would be flat topped as well.
Those “dimples” are quite vexing… As you point out, the older M70 Target rifles I’ve seen (that still have original bases on them) have dimples, while sometime after the war (1950s) they became very “hit or miss”. I have one very late National Match rifle (S/N 506314) in like new condition that I got from the original purchaser (who shot Garands in match competition and hardly ever fired the Winchester). On that rifle the factory “Lyman type” base on the barrel does not have dimples, while the one on the receiver ring does. Like the assembler was just pulling from the parts bin and nobody cared about those “obsolete” detent dimples anymore.
Yes… I know the 506314 S/N is very late for a National Match (discontinued 1959), but it is a National Match configuration with clip loading slot and the correct low front sight ramp.
As always, I appreciate your insight!!!
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou, interesting that you have 506314 in a NM. I have a mint one also, that is 506305. I’m not sure mine has been fired since it left the factory. I will check the bases out on it.
Steve
Lou, checked my Pre War Bullgun last night. It has the flat base w/ the 2 dimples. So, apparently, same as yours.
Steve
November 5, 2014
Offline
Steve-
Thank you so much for the information. Nice to know.
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Not related to your question, but…
I’ve often looked at that Bull Gun photo in Whittaker’s book. The rifle is SN 44362–a Pre-war rifle. That style hanging tag was not used on Pre-war M70s. Just another example of an “upgrade.”
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Vic-
Right you are…
If I may, let me turn my initial question around. On factory original Bull Guns, how commonplace are 0.262″ height Lyman style front telescopic sight bases?
This is a question driven by my own ignorance. I own/have owned a total of 4 Bull Guns: the two pre-war rifles mentioned above (S/N 22353 and 45937), a transition era .300 MAGNUM (S/N 77144), and a later .30-06 SPFLD (S/N 411042). Of those, when I acquired them the two pre-war guns had flat-topped 0.262″ height telescopic sight bases (like the ones pictured above), and the two post war guns were without bases (so I do not know what they had originally). The Winchester component parts catalog only specifies the height, not the style, of base. Most photos of Bull Guns in books are full length profile shots that do not show the base well enough to tell if it is Lyman type or Unertl type. If I go to the RIA photo database, there are three Bull Guns pictured where one can see the front base in the photo depicting the caliber designation stamp. Those are all Lyman type, BUT they are the taller height (probably the 0.360″ base). This is easy to tell. Since the dimensions of the dovetail are the same, the height of the base is reflected in the height of the block below the dovetail. You can see from the top photo I posted above that on a .262″ high base, e.g. the Unertl B-70, there is very little metal between the inside corner of the dovetail and the bottom of the base.
So… While I am sure that most M70 gurus know the answer, I have found no clear evidence that Winchester used 0.262″ height Lyman type bases on Bull Guns. Perhaps they felt that left too little metal between the screw head and the barrel and only used the Unertl type base in that height????
Not important, just curious…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou, My Bullgun bases are about evenly split between the .262″ high base and the taller .360″ base. No way of telling for sure if they are original to gun after 50+ years. I have the original blueprint for the Bullgun barrel, and interestingly, they call for the .360″ high front base. The note on the print states: “Tel. scope base height for large objective lens, Lyman and Fecker. Rear .167 high. Front .360 high.” The original drawing is dated 1935, however, based on revision block in drawing, this note was added in 1948.
Steve
1 Guest(s)
