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Pound for pound–that is, an identical Winchester lever action gun, one being pre 1899 and the other being post 1898–how much of a premium does the former garnish over the latter, if any? I want to see others answer before I give my opinion. This is to settle a dispute others don’t wish to believe, and I’m not playing “dumb”.
I thank you in advance for playing along.
Historically, the premium for a bona fide Antique has ranged from 10% to as much as 25%. The overall average is probably close to 15%.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Online
Thank you. Since I heard from the pre-eminent authority on the matter, I will respond with a bit more. Over on the Parker forum I stated that the premium for a Winchester antique lever action rifle is about 20% more than an identical gun but not an antique. This came about because an 1894 production DH Grade Parker was presented for sale and I said I would prefer to own that one vs a similar one because it is pre 1899. I was basically told that is hogwash and just to buy whatever I like and disregard the manufacture date as there is no premium. I stated that I am not nearly as well versed in Parkers as I am with Winchesters and Colts, and about a 20% premium exists for each, in antique status. A so called Winchester expert, and others disagreed with me. I wanted to get it from other sources as they can be a stubborn lot over there and are difficult to reason with.
It really depends upon the buyer. I don’t buy non antiques for several reasons. Modern guns are not in the period/era of my collection and since I am not a dealer or a FFL holder the process of selling or trading a modern gun is a hassle. The people that don’t have my phobias like the prices of the modern guns. As far as a percentage I am not qualified to answer that but I would pay more I guess. The price I pay is based upon the gun and my desire to have that exact gun.
deerhunter said
How about same scenario, but letterable range vs. non-letterable range?
Don,
I do not believe that letterable vs. non-letterable makes much difference other than the cost of the letter itself… e.g, Model 1894 serial number 353999 with a factory letter might bring an extra $50 – $100 over serial number 354000.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
My primary interest is in the model 1892. I have had opportunities to buy several from 1925 and newer which appeared to be ‘good values’. I’ve passed on all of them because I’d prefer mine to be at least 100 years old. So the ‘pre-1900’ is a plus, but a ‘pre-1920’ is still OK for me. But to be honest, all being equal I would go for the pre-1900 example if given two choices.
I’ve never really tried to ‘quantify’ how much of a premium I’d pay for similar examples of newer vs older, but I think 25% would not be too much of a difference for me. Maybe more significant is that I simply don’t buy the newer examples, no matter the price.
And I definitely would and have paid a premium for a model 1892 in the ‘letterable’ range. Maybe that’s because I’m not as knowledgeable as others on this forum, and find a level of confidence in a gun that matches the letter.
NP
Nevada Paul
Life Member NRA
Lets take it a step further….would there be a difference in premium on a “Deluxe” or “fancy sporting rifle” that was the same as one that was not antique?
Shotgun guys believe that if it isn’t pretty enough refinish it. When dealing with Winchesters don’t ask a shotgun guy.
Letterable or not letterable to me really matters if the gun is in a range that it could be lettered. The guns that are out of the range are some of the most messed with guns. When guns are out of the range it is up to you to do your homework. A letter usually helps. Remember though, guns are made to match a letter.
If the gun is rare or has rare features a letter is huge. I would pay a lot more if the features can be faked, example, swiss butt, cheekpiece, barrel length, etc. What would you pay for a 36″ barrel gun without a letter, a lot less than one with. This percentage stuff only works with hardware store guns. T/R
I agree. Plain Jane vs plain Jane, a letter doesn’t add much. But a long list (or even a short list) of special order features that can be verified by a letter is a huge plus for me.
Don
deerhunter said
I agree. Plain Jane vs plain Jane, a letter doesn’t add much. But a long list (or even a short list) of special order features that can be verified by a letter is a huge plus for me.Don
I agree Don. Also, A letter for a gun with special order features is a huge help for less experienced collectors who may not have the lengthy experience and who have had the opportunity to exam hundreds of guns over the years.
Al
Chuck said
Shotgun guys believe that if it isn’t pretty enough refinish it. When dealing with Winchesters don’t ask a shotgun guy.
Amen!
The point of this thread, that is, it’s creation, was to prove what I already knew. Antique Winchesters garner a premium. I stated that I would rather have a side by side of a certain make, if presented two identical guns at identical prices, antique first before the post 1898 FFL paperwork required gun. I was told I am off my rocker, such a premium exists nowhere! I proved my point, and was told by a “Winchester collector” over there this wasn’t so. I pressed the matter further and the responses of at least two forum members was to just “go away”.
What a snooty unwelcoming bunch of blowhards. May they desperately try and sell their musty old shotguns someday and find there’s no one to purchase them as they drove all new blood away, LOL!
I think I will stick to my Winchesters, Colts, Smith & Wessons, Merwin & Hulberts, and Sharps.
This forum is a blessing. I have a thick skin, but over there it’s a real clique.
Chuck said
It really depends upon the buyer. I don’t buy non antiques for several reasons. Modern guns are not in the period/era of my collection and since I am not a dealer or a FFL holder the process of selling or trading a modern gun is a hassle. The people that don’t have my phobias like the prices of the modern guns. As far as a percentage I am not qualified to answer that but I would pay more I guess. The price I pay is based upon the gun and my desire to have that exact gun.
Pretty much the same for me. I don’t collect non-antique Winchesters.
In addition, my interest has much to do with the historical allure of 125>150+ year old Winchesters.
The history of these rifles and the part they’ve played in american history fascinates me.
I’d say 20% premium for antiques is a fairly accurate figure.
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Kevin Jones said I don’t collect non-antique Winchesters.
Wish more M52 & 70 enthusiasts would adopt that viewpoint–there’s FAR too many of them! But I appreciate, believe me, the wonderful blessing of escaping the trials & tribulations of FFL requirements. I thought I’d be escaping most of them when I acquired my C&R license many yrs ago…only to discover I was STILL under the thumb of FFL dealers who wouldn’t honor it for the purchase of C&R eligible guns.
I also put a premium on antique status and agree with Bert on the amounts. For new collectors it’s nice to match the details in a letter or Ser # search to confirm original configuration. I try not to get hung up over it or pass on an opportunity, but I would hate to buy for example a rifle with crescent buttstock & then find out it originally had a shotgun butt or was a different caliber & rebarreled etc. For me a letter is a welcomed bonus. jmo
AG
The older a Parker is usually the less it is worth. Parkers and similar shotguns are a completely different ballgame. Winchesters have history. Parkers do not.
THIS ALL STARTED WITH JUST ONE GUN!
Bert H. said
Historically, the premium for a bona fide Antique has ranged from 10% to as much as 25%. The overall average is probably close to 15%.Bert
I like the 25% factor for a good number of obvious reasons, plus an additional 10% added to cover potential taxes…with a range of between 10 and 35% based on condition from 0 to 100%.
James
Bert H. said
Don,
I do not believe that letterable vs. non-letterable makes much difference other than the cost of the letter itself… e.g, Model 1894 serial number 353999 with a factory letter might bring an extra $50 – $100 over serial number 354000.
Bert
I totally agree with this statement as it seems certain to become the standard for this issue.
James
Old Guns said
The older a Parker is usually the less it is worth. Parkers and similar shotguns are a completely different ballgame. Winchesters have history. Parkers do not.
I second that motion! The early Winchesters can have a lot of interesting history even if you don’t know it and the letter can prove it’s in original configuration. Antique with a letter is worth more in the Winchester world, just my opinion. T/R
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