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Pre-64 30-06 Model 70
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December 4, 2019 - 5:10 pm
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I’m hoping the wisdom I have read on this forum can be applied to identify my rifle. Long story short, my uncle left me a 1957 Model 70 when he passed away. I took it to the range, inserted a 30-06 as is stamped on the barrel and it wouldn’t fully chamber. I took it to a gun smith as we both assumed there was a neck of a shell lodged inside. He couldn’t extract anything, then disassembled the rifle to determine that it is actually a 308 with several thousandths of extra space. I’m not sure of the technical and specific terms to use. The first gun smith got a second opinion who came to the same conclusion. They both didn’t think the barrel was modified and think that it was potentially like this from the factory. Through the research I’ve done, it appears this rifle is often subject to being counterfeit. How can I determine what is going on here? I’m not a collector so if I can’t shoot it from time to time, I’m not going to keep it in my safe. I’d like to know what I have, potential value, and how do I sell a rifle that is clearly stamped incorrectly? I can post pictures if that would help. Thanks in advance.

Jason

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December 5, 2019 - 6:14 pm
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Wow. Following.

Shoot low boys. They're riding Shetland Ponies.

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December 5, 2019 - 7:24 pm
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[email protected] said 
He couldn’t extract anything, then disassembled the rifle to determine that it is actually a 308 with several thousandths of extra space.  

Were, exactly, was that “extra space”?  Did he tell you it was headspaced correctly & would be safe to fire .308s?

Problem with authenticating Model 70s is that there are no surviving factory records.  But this wouldn’t seem to be anything a faker would do to increase value.  Though some will say “Winchester never made mistakes,” reason says, “to err is human.”

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December 5, 2019 - 8:48 pm
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I believe he was describing headspace. He said that he used go and no go’s, used tape, and eventually determined that there were several thousandths of extra space where the brass wasn’t seated properly… He told me that he wouldn’t recommend me shooting it due to the extra space. 

I just texted my gunsmith to be more clear and will update when I hear back from him.

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December 5, 2019 - 9:03 pm
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[email protected] said
I believe he was describing headspace. He said that he used go and no go’s, used tape, and eventually determined that there were several thousandths of extra space where the brass wasn’t seated properly… He told me that he wouldn’t recommend me shooting it due to the extra space. 

I just texted my gunsmith to be more clear and will update when I hear back from him.  

If it’s space ahead of the shoulder, the case would expand to fill it when fired, but could afterwards be handloaded to make a perfect fit.  If headspace is safe, I wouldn’t be afraid to fire it to find out what the case looks like.  In fact, you can “make” headspace safe by seating the bullet out far enough to jam into the rifling & force the case head back against the bolt face. 

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December 5, 2019 - 9:56 pm
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From my gunsmith “So the model 70 was stamped as a 30-06 springfield. The actual chambering was for a 308 Winchester. The headspace for the 308 chamber was approximately .008″-.010″ too deep. Thus making it unsafe to shoot.”

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December 5, 2019 - 10:17 pm
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“Headspacing” is a relationship between bolt & barrel as contained in particular receiver. Bolt, barrel or both, replaced can cause problems. The amount here seeming bit severe and if family gun with known lineage, less likely. But over more than half-century since mfg, many alterations/Bubbaesque ‘stuff’ to occur! Lot of speculation room.

Consider creating a ‘chamber cast’ as perhaps most definitive & accepted measurement tool for apparent issues as chamber uncertainties. Depending on present measurement techniques, perhaps bolt issue. Home Gunsmithing supply houses with such materials. ‘How to’ video below. Typically ‘self-help’ capable chore. Otherwise, gunsmith assist, shouldn’t be expensive. Especially so if you strip & prep beforehand.

Good luck!
Happy Holidays to all!
John

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December 5, 2019 - 11:47 pm
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Hi Jason-

IMHO… This mystery cannot be sorted out from the info we have thus far.  At minimum, we’d need good photos of the overall rifle, the serial number, and all markings on the barrel to maybe have a clue what’s going on.  Confused Better would be an examination of the gun itself by a gunsmith who’s familiar with this model and its variations.

A few questions:

1)  What is the serial number?  The 308 WIN chambering was introduced in 1952, so any gun with a 308 WIN chambered barrel and a S/N below about 210,000 has been rebarreled at some point.

2) What is the barrel contour?  Standard or featherweight.  The FWT was chambered for 308 WIN (1952-1963) and for 30-06 SPRG. (1955-1963).  The standard rifle was never cataloged in 308 WIN.

3) What do the exposed and under barrel stamps look like?  Barrel date under the chamber?

4) Does the barrel carry a “WP” proof mark at the breech end?  This was only applied AFTER proof and function testing of the ASSEMBLED rifle.  So IMHO it’s NOT POSSIBLE for a M70 that’s proofed to have escaped the factory marked 30-06 and chambered in 308 WIN.

5) Does the electropenciled serial number on the bottom of the bolt match that of the receiver?  The most common source of bad headspace is a swapped bolt.  Would not explain the mismatch between the caliber marking and chamber.

Odd….  I’d suspect it’s made of parts, but that would not explain the chamber dimensions being different from the external caliber marking…  As John said, if all else fails a chamber cast might help!!!

Lou

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December 6, 2019 - 2:27 am
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Depending on model, I think it is quite possible that at some point in the rifle’s life, the barrel has been set back and rechambered for a 308. This is very easy to do, and was quite common on ’06 target rifles. A standard rifle would be much more difficult and require a custom stock to make up for the difference in length from receiver face to rear sight boss. 

Another possibility, although much less likely,  is a sleeved chamber. I have never seen it done on a ’06, but have seen

22 Hornet 70’s that were punched out to 222 Remington, sleeved, and returned to Hornet. This is quite a job and requires a great deal of machine work and skill, not to mention very dangerous if not done correctly. 

As Lou mentioned, it’s really tough to say w/o seeing some good pictures.

Steve

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December 6, 2019 - 2:51 am
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  Hi.  Back in the ’70s , it common to fit an insert into the chamber of Garands, to convert them to 308 Win.Calibre. My guess is that somebody has done that to this rifle.    Eric

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December 6, 2019 - 3:30 am
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Eric Ryan said
  Hi.  Back in the ’70s , it common to fit an insert into the chamber of Garands, to convert them to 308 Win.Calibre. My guess is that somebody has done that to this rifle.    Eric  

I’ve got one of those inserts, but installing it shouldn’t result in excessive headspace.

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December 6, 2019 - 3:42 am
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I am not referring to a chamber adapter as sold by various companies. I am talking about actually making and insert to fit into a bored hole in chamber end of barrel and then chambering the insert to desired caliber. It would be very easy to get excessive headspace if chambering reamer was run it too far into new chamber. Really .008″ is not what I would call “dangerous”. I think one would be surprised at how many old rifles are floating around with headspace in excess of .008″. If memory serve’s me, difference between “go” and “no go” on a 30-06 length cartridge is .004″. Normal wear on an old bolt action would get you to .008″ pretty easily if use a lot. 

Steve

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December 6, 2019 - 3:43 am
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You have 3 options to fix the rifle:

The barrel can be set back one full thread and the chamber reamer for 308 run in the appropriate distance. It will have to stay 308 as the shoulder on the 308 is slightly larger than the 30-06. (to recut an 06 chamber the barrel would have to be chopped a couple inches.) With a sporter or FWT barrel there is not enough diameter left to do this.

Find a factory pre 64 take off barrel, they pop up frequently on gunbroker and ebay. They are relatively inexpensive.

Have a custom barrel installed.

Question for Lou, as a 308 would there be a magazine block for the shorter 308 cartridge? If full length 06 the mag well would be wide open, correct?

Erin

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December 6, 2019 - 3:50 am
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One comment concerning take off barrels…..There is no guarantee they will index correctly or have correct head space for another rifle. Winchester checked and set (if required) the final headspace for each Model 70 by hand after it barrel was assembled to receiver. You still run the risk of having to set the barrel back 1 thread and rechamber to correct headspace. They you have the problem of the stock which will require modification also to match of with new rear sight boss. 

Steve

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December 6, 2019 - 7:03 am
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Sorry! I’m still hung up here as ‘coming from different, perhaps ‘more elemental’ analysis place. One not within ‘conjure orbit’ here. From barrel markings, reasonably presumed starting life as 30-06. From there, not to be too quick particularly to ‘presume’ 308 Winchester rechambering ‘intent’ accompanying missed execution. Exemplary, 7.62 NATO round itself with known (SAMMI Spec’ed) differences. NATO being bit longer and I believe ‘net’, such within those +10 thousandths specs you reference ‘if correct measurement’.
If conjuring ‘how/why such result as viewed now’, perhaps to first consider whether factual error existed at as now viewed. “Intent!” Indeed, many non-error possibilities from intentionally applying perhaps then ‘hot off the presses’ NATO round specs. That, to seeking/achieving one of the hundreds of wildcat chamberings. “Blown out cartridge”, specs toward greater power. Either NATO or wildcat, possibilities leaving that rifle arguably of correct chambering ‘intent’. Perhaps just result, simply not ‘as desired’!
My own head-banging’ experience, buying an ostensibly nice, original rifle in desirable chambering only to later determine correct “Ackley Wildcat” equivalent! Without nicety of updated chambering nomenclature! In accord with “Murphy’s Law”, happening… Too often!!
Yet, side remark questioning the competence of any gunsmith not possessing a complete set of the several headspace gauges in most often used & versatile 30-06. That said, from such omission, compensating, seeming incredibly, to piece together Field Gauge functionality with “Tape”! Even ‘klutz ‘n chief’, myself with Foster 30-06/270 Win dual applicability gauge set. I understand ‘such’ ‘spit & bailing wire’ happens. Simply such person not knowledgeably within my orbit of professionals! I would not trust any headspace ‘spec’ info from such source!
My net so far, Jason. Almost any case, you’re with at least ‘the bones’ of a great rifle. Now or yet ‘in the making’ realm. Even in most plain-Jane, ‘ordinary’ configuration, yet speculatively quite within bounds of ‘covetable’ field/hunting rifle. Such even beyond bounds of anything collectible! With any ‘pre ‘64’, Model 70, the ‘parachute factor’ of not-unusual, such rifle ‘sum of parts’, yet considerable!
Here, now, as suggested, additional info, particularly in form of good photos, providing experts here ‘the keys’ toward resolving your apparent ‘net’ outstanding question. “Valuation!”
Good luck and DO please send pix! ?
Happy Holidays!
John

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December 6, 2019 - 3:49 pm
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Hi Jason-

I agree with Steve, of course.  Laugh Is it perhaps odd that the barrel would not have been overstamped 308 WIN somewhere if it was set back and rechambered (thereby saving you and your gunsmith the confusion).  If set back, on a standard contour barrel the rear sight boss would no longer fit the stock inletting and the “WP” proof would be (all or partly) missing (unless, as Steve said, the chamber was bored out and sleeved).  Some external photos would likely identify what was done (except for the sleeved chamber).

As for a fix, my inclination would be to find a replacement barrel (cheap) and have it fit by a good gunsmith (not necessarily cheap).  At the factory, the chambers were left slightly short and final headspace was set by hand after barrel, receiver and bolt body were together.  You don’t have that luxury after the fact and it might take some trial and error with multiple barrels to get one to index correctly, but my (limited) experience is that Winchester did a remarkably good job achieving consistency given the technology of the time.  Steve has a much better perspective on this than I do, however.

Hi Erin-

Yes, you are correct.  The 308 WIN chambering required a different (partitioned) magazine box, short follower and magazine spring, extractor collar with bolt stop extension, and longer ejector.  All pretty much drop-in parts though.

Best,

Lou

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December 6, 2019 - 5:50 pm
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Louis Luttrell said

As for a fix, my inclination would be to find a replacement barrel (cheap) and have it fit by a good gunsmith (not necessarily cheap).  At the factory, the chambers were left slightly short and final headspace was set by hand after barrel, receiver and bolt body were together.  You don’t have that luxury after the fact and it might take some trial and error with multiple barrels to get one to index correctly, but my (limited) experience is that Winchester did a remarkably good job achieving consistency given the technology of the time.  

Still say, before going to all that trouble & expense, shoot it first! Spending more on it won’t make it a collector’s item (unless it can be proven a “factory error”!); it is, & will remain, a shooter. Fired cases can be examined to asses the amount of stretching at the head, if any, & even moderate stretching is no disaster if they aren’t going to be reloaded.

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December 6, 2019 - 6:59 pm
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I appreciate all the feedback. I have to admit I’m not sure I understand the majority of it. I’m attemping to upload photos I took of it last week. If there are specific views that can help please let me know and I’m happy to take more.

To address a few of the questions, my uncle most definitely acquired this second hand. He was an awesome and interesting person. He always had stories that were too crazy to even make up. That being said, he was very knowledgeable about guns and was a gunsmith himself. That being said, it’s impossible to know how he acquired it.

I don’t know how to identify the different styles of the M70. I did measure the barrel to be roughly 24″ as I was only differentiating between 24″ and 26″ at the time.

I do have a picture of the bolt but it didn’t upload to my computer from my phone so I’ll add that later. There are multiple numbers etched into the bolt that do appear to match what is stamped on the barrel. It has quite a bit of wear that makes it difficult for me to be sure but I think I see 5 numbers on the bolt.

The gunsmith I used is new but I think very competent. He didn’t mention seeing any markings other than what’s stamped on the visible part of the barrel but I would feel comfortable saying he wouldn’t know the ins and outs of what the M70’s had or didn’t have.

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December 6, 2019 - 7:41 pm
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It’s a target model. Most likely barrel was set back and rechambered for 308. Is the proofmark on LH side of barrel still visible? It will be adjacent to the proofmark on receiver. How about a picture of left side of barrel & receiver where they join?

Steve

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December 6, 2019 - 7:58 pm
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Wow Jason! I’m impressed! Beautiful looking rifle. Presuming it’s a Target Model from about 1957. Need to leave any definite pronouncements for the expert crew! The condition looks outstanding! If it does chamber out to NATO, perhaps bit more valuable even if not “original” in such respect. From the pix, the whole rifle looks ‘right to me. That said, pix such as under-barrel as removed from stock. One thing that surprises me is the appearance of receiver clip guides. Didn’t know the targets had them that late in production! Undoubtedly ‘my bad’ as in uninformed. 🙂 The vision I had from your information of pretty much a stock, Standard Model configuration. Happily wrong!
Were it mine, to spring for a set of Gauges. Info below.
Good luck, I’ll be watching, cheering & perhaps continuing to chime in… In uncalled for fashion! 🙂

https://www.forsterproducts.com/pdf/brochures/nato1.pdf

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