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Per 64 Model stocks
September 20, 2019
4:27 pm
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 Hello All, I'm some what new to the group. Mostly just reading the posts for the last year..

       I have a question on Pre 64 model 70 stocks.

     1) How many types difference types were made were made up to 1963

     2) What are the differences between them.

September 20, 2019
10:32 pm
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Hi Dwight-

That question would take a book chapter to answer.  Specifically a chapter in Roger Rule's book.  There are so many nuances that define what is "period correct" that it's impossible to give a good answer to such a general question without writing a book.  If you have a specific S/N and chambering in mind it would be easy enough to describe the correct stock (and I might be able to find a photo on this computer to help).  If you're talking M70s in general, then studying Roger's book is the essential place to start...

In VERY broad terms and speaking only of standard style stocks (not Super Grades)...

Early pre-war (type I) stocks (1936 - 1941):  Inlet for the cloverleaf tang action, no recoil pad, 20 line checkering.  If factory equipped with a receiver sight the stock has a square cut out on the left side.

Late pre-war (type I) and transition (type II) stocks (1941 - 1948):  Inlet for the cloverleaf tang action, no recoil pad, checkering tends to be all over the place.  18 line checkering started being used in '41, but both 18 and 20 line checkering turn up pretty often in this period in somewhat random fashion.  In general, the checkering coverage (especially on the pistol grip) is generally a little less than the earlier stocks.  Still inlet (until 1947) for a receiver sight if factory installed.

Early to mid-type III stocks (1948 - 1961-ish):  Inlet for the oval tang, no recoil pad, checkering in 18 line.  The quality of checkering deteriorates over the years and the borders get a bit wider, but still hand-checkered.  The base block of the Lyman 48WJS receiver sight was redesigned in 1947 (last cataloged as an option in 1949), so late type II and all type III stocks are not factory cut out for a receiver sight .  

Type III stocks (1960-ish - 1963):  Inlet for the oval tang, no recoil pad, checkering in 18 line, still done by hand.  The butt plate changes to hard rubber and the screws have regular slots.  

Later type III stocks (1961-1962):  Inlet for the oval tang, no recoil pad, checkering 18-line.  Narrow panel checkering cut by a checkering machine.  The butt plate is hard rubber and the screws are still slotted.

Really late type III stocks (1962-1963): As above but the butt plate screws are Phillips head.

Other points:

The barrel channel is inlet for the barrel contour (Duhhh... Wink)...  The standard stocks were inlet for the regular barrel (1936 - 1963), 24" medium heavy straight taper (375 MAGNUM only; 1937 - 1942-ish), C-1 contour for the second style 375 MAGNUM barrel (1939-ish - 1963), and narrow straight taper inletting for the FWT (1952-1963).

Chamberings with factory recoil pads...  375 H&H MAGNUM (solid red 1936 - 1962-ish; ventilated Winchester red pad 1962-ish - 1963); 458 Win MAGNUM (SG-only 1956 - 1963); 338 WIN MAGNUM (solid red 1959 - 1961; vent pad 1962-1963); 264 WIN MAGNUM Featherweight ONLY (1963); and 300 WIN MAGNUM (1963).

Chambering specific...  The H&H actions have a longer magazine box.  Hence the stock has a longer cut out for the magazine (1936-1963).  All the others used the same stock inletting.

Aren't you sorry you asked??? Wink

For the experts... This was from memory...  Corrections welcome!!! Laugh 

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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September 20, 2019
11:42 pm
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Lou,       Sorry I asked??? 

     NO not at all. That's petty much what I was looking for.

   I have a Model 70 transitional in .257 Roberts.. The stock is toast, well two pieces. 

  Looking into my options, Might be as easy as just a little inletting.. Hard part is finding early to mid-type III stock

   Thanks for the great info.

 

     Dwight

September 21, 2019
3:11 am
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Hi Dwight-

What, more or less, is the serial number of your gun?  Assuming it's an early type III stock (oval tang) there's an additional consideration, which is that the change in the pistol grip from "oval" like the pre-wars to "looped" like the later guns occurred (on average) a good bit after the change from cloverleaf to oval tang inletting. 

So if the gun is, say, less than about 110K S/N it would most likely have had an oval pistol grip contour despite the oval tang inletting.  Kinda like this one (type III-1 257 ROBERTS S/N 88933).  Photo is courtesy of pre64win.com (not my gun):

IMG_9867.JPGImage Enlarger

Best,

Lou

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September 21, 2019
12:21 pm
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Lou, 

      Serial number is in the 7519X range. The pistol grip, looks a bit difference. But it might just be my lighting.

           regards

       Dwight

September 21, 2019
1:13 pm
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Lou,

      I found this transitional in .257 Roberts.  Other than UPS damage. "splitting the stock from the rear of the trigger bow running 7'' up to the comb". She old and well used, but very well taken care of. Bluing is worn, no pitting there are 3 small dings in the stock.

     Collecting these older Model 70's, There are so many fine lines. In value, rather it's been refinished in any way or condition.  I'm trying to figure out. Either fix the stock that's been on the rifle for the past 70 + years.. Or try to find a correct stock.

    I have quite a few old rifles and I like to take them out and use them..

 

  Dwight

September 21, 2019
2:29 pm
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Dwight-

In the 75,000 S/N range, I suspect you have a type II (cloverleaf thang).  Pics below are S/N 74118, which is a type II-1 in 22 HORNET:

013.jpegImage Enlarger003.jpegImage Enlarger

Note the tang inletting and shape of the pistol grip.  Note also that this one has the 20-line checkering despite its post-was (1947) manufacture.  As I said above, there was a lot of inconsistency in checkering at the time.  Another picture of the pistol grip from below (different gun, S/N 84113):

84113-14.jpgImage Enlarger

Does this look like the right one?

Best,

Lou

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September 21, 2019
3:02 pm
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  Lou,      That looks about right.

  Do you think I would be further ahead fixing the original stock, or trying find a replacement?

  I know a couple of excellent stock makers.

   Dwight

September 21, 2019
7:42 pm
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Hi Dwight-

Depends on what your goals are.  You said the rifle has worn finishes but was well cared for, which I presume means it has a good bore and that you plan to take it out and use it.  Since the recoil of the 257 ROBERTS is relatively light, you might well be able to have the existing stock repaired for reasonable cost.  That might be a good option whatever else you do as it never hurts to have a spare "field stock". Getting one of your stock maker buddies to look at it seems a sound choice.  One it's been pinned and glued back together there's nothing "original" about it anymore, so refinishing the wood is purely a maintenance issue.

As for finding an original cloverleaf tang stock with 18-line or 20-line checkering...  If you want one with good original finish, not cut for a recoil pad, and no substantial blemishes: 1) you'll be looking a long time; and, 2) I'll be surprised if you can get it for less than $400.  If you are mainly interested in the integrity of the stock and don't mind one that's refinished or sports a recoil pad then you'll have an easier (and cheaper) time.

Good luck!!! Smile

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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September 22, 2019
1:15 pm
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Lou,

    I was thinking,,,fixing the original stock. As in the stock that it came out of the factory with. I know the value will take a significant cut.

    Just went online and ordered Roger Rule's book. Knowledge doesn't come cheap does it..

            Dwight

September 22, 2019
4:52 pm
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Dwight Flemming said 

    Just went online and ordered Roger Rule's book. Knowledge doesn't come cheap does it..

That's no lie; which is why, for my limited informational needs, I'm not too proud to exploit the generosity of experts like Louis.

As for repairing your UPS-trashed stock, that's an excellent idea, and it would matter to me that the gun retained its original stock, rather than a replacement.  Doubt the damage could be worse that that sustained by my delicate 5-lb Boss side-by when it fell out of a gun rack at a shooting preserve & snapped the wrist.  Thought it was a lost cause, but when it had been repaired by a master stock maker, it was almost impossible to see where the break had occurred; if pins were used, they weren't visible.

This "miracle" was possible mainly owing to the skill of the stockmaker, but also because it was a fresh break, not one contaminated with oil, which greatly hinders glue adhesion.  Be aware, however, of this very large fly in the ointment: the experts capable of this level of quality are perpetually snowed-under with work; I waited a year for this job.

September 22, 2019
5:17 pm
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   Can I ask who you used?

September 22, 2019
6:38 pm
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Dwight Flemming said
   Can I ask who you used?  

Sure, but I'm afraid it would be to no avail, because this man stays so busy that he refuses even to answer his own phone!  Only way I can ever reach him is by leaving a message (which I hate to do), & hoping he'll call me back. He used to undertake restoration work on all kinds of guns (inc. many Winchesters that left his shop with far fancier wood than they arrived with!), but now restricts himself to high-grade shotguns & double rifles because, frankly, he can charge more, without complaints, for that kind of carriage-trade work.

But I don't think it would require a stockmaker of his expertise to put your 70 stock back together, unless it's badly splintered at the fracture.

September 22, 2019
9:58 pm
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Hi Clarence-

You're giving me too much credit, since most everything I post in this forum is pulled from Rule's book... And BTW... I've greatly appreciated many of your informative posts, e.g. on sights and scopes that I know virtually nothing about...  Laugh

I do like to illustrate posts whenever possible with photos either of my guns or one's I've saved off the internet.  When I "disagree" with Rule, I try to plainly state both my anecdotal experience and Rule's (which is also anecdotal - meaning based on personal experience as opposed to non-existent factory documentation).  

FWIW... I am (slowly) working on a M70 all-rifle survey, taking advantage of the generosity of collector friends (as Rule did when researching his book) AND the internet (which didn't exist when Roger was doing his research).  There are some outstanding questions that I think might be answered this way.  Doing such a survey now, of course, is subject to a substantial "error rate" given the "fungible" (to steal a word from iskra) nature of M70s and the amount of period incorrect "restoration" that's gone on since 1963, but MAYBE if the sample size is big enough the "truth" will emerge (outliers will stand out as such).  I won't offer any conclusions from this (hopefully not pointless) exercise until I get rifles 12,000 recorded (2% of production).  I only started this Summer, and I've only had time to record a bit more than 1,000 so far.  At least new entries aren't hard to find at this stage!!!

Hi Dwight-

Rule's book may be pricey (about $90 in eBay), but if you are thinking about adding more of these to your arsenal and care about whether they are correct (I won't use the word "original" and "pre-64 M70" in the same sentence), you'll save way more than that the first time you pass on a messed up parts gun...  Wink

Please keep us updated on your project, whichever route you take... Laugh

Best,

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

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September 23, 2019
12:22 pm
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Lou, I'll give you credit, you took the time to help out one of the new guys here. The dealer I got the rifle is working with me on this. Just had a e-mail from him and he found a stock, so I just waiting for pic's of it.

 If I don't like it, I can return it the rifle full refund. In the back of my mind, I'm thinking that might be the best way to go.. 

On the other hand, I have .257R dies and a coffee can full of brass.

    Dwight

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