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On the subject of Returned and Repaired Letters, Here's one for a Model 1885
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September 8, 2023 - 8:26 pm
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Please support, modify, or refute:

The “VP” in a circle on the underside of the barrel means this barrel was proofed 1905 or after.  Meaning subsequent work was performed 1905 or after and/or the barrel is a replacement dating from 1905 or later.

 

What I don’t understand is why the encircled “VP” is not on the top of the barrel and also duplicated on the frame.

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September 8, 2023 - 9:09 pm
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mrcvs said
Please support, modify, or refute:

The “VP” in a circle on the underside of the barrel means this barrel was proofed 1905 or after.  Meaning subsequent work was performed 1905 or after and/or the barrel is a replacement dating from 1905 or later.

 

What I don’t understand is why the encircled “VP” is not on the top of the barrel and also duplicated on the frame.

  

Completely different purpose & meaning of the VP from the WP proofs applied to brl & rcvr.  Though the meaning of “VP” is disputed, if you will search back issues of the WACA Journal for an article by Art Gogan, you’ll find the most logical explanation I’ve read of what it meant.  NOBODY knows more about metallurgy, forging & casting procedures, & every other aspect of metal working as it applies to guns than Gogan.

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September 8, 2023 - 9:31 pm
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clarence said

mrcvs said

Please support, modify, or refute:

The “VP” in a circle on the underside of the barrel means this barrel was proofed 1905 or after.  Meaning subsequent work was performed 1905 or after and/or the barrel is a replacement dating from 1905 or later.

 

What I don’t understand is why the encircled “VP” is not on the top of the barrel and also duplicated on the frame.

  

Completely different purpose & meaning of the VP from the WP proofs applied to brl & rcvr.  Though the meaning of “VP” is disputed, if you will search back issues of the WACA Journal for an article by Art Gogan, you’ll find the most logical explanation I’ve read of what it meant.  NOBODY knows more about metallurgy, forging & casting procedures, & every other aspect of metal working as it applies to guns than Gogan. 

Is the barrel appropriate for an R & R September 1892, as it doesn’t letter as shipped September 1888?

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September 8, 2023 - 11:14 pm
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mrcvs said
Please support, modify, or refute:

The “VP” in a circle on the underside of the barrel means this barrel was proofed 1905 or after.  Meaning subsequent work was performed 1905 or after and/or the barrel is a replacement dating from 1905 or later.

 

What I don’t understand is why the encircled “VP” is not on the top of the barrel and also duplicated on the frame.

  

The “VP” in a circle was used dating back to the late 1870s, and it was never stamped on the top of the barrel.  It was the “WP” in an oval that was introduced in July 1905, stamped on the top of the barrel.

Bert

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September 8, 2023 - 11:16 pm
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clarence said

mrcvs said

Please support, modify, or refute:

The “VP” in a circle on the underside of the barrel means this barrel was proofed 1905 or after.  Meaning subsequent work was performed 1905 or after and/or the barrel is a replacement dating from 1905 or later.

 

What I don’t understand is why the encircled “VP” is not on the top of the barrel and also duplicated on the frame.

  

Completely different purpose & meaning of the VP from the WP proofs applied to brl & rcvr.  Though the meaning of “VP” is disputed, if you will search back issues of the WACA Journal for an article by Art Gogan, you’ll find the most logical explanation I’ve read of what it meant.  NOBODY knows more about metallurgy, forging & casting procedures, & every other aspect of metal working as it applies to guns than Gogan.

  

As recorded by Winchester in their own notes, the “VP” stamp was for “Violent Proof”, and it was applied after passing inspection following firing a 200% proof load through the barrel after it was initially bored but not yet rifled.

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September 8, 2023 - 11:30 pm
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Bert H. said

As recorded by Winchester in their own notes, the “VP” stamp was “Violent Proof”, nad was applied after firing a 200% proof load through the barrel after it was initially bored but not yet rifled.

Art Gogan disagrees. Did you read his discussion?  The note you’re referring to (which Gogan references) looks like an off the cuff remark by a salesman or clerk in response to a question, not by anyone in the engineering dept. 

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September 8, 2023 - 11:37 pm
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Bert H. said

mrcvs said

Please support, modify, or refute:

The “VP” in a circle on the underside of the barrel means this barrel was proofed 1905 or after.  Meaning subsequent work was performed 1905 or after and/or the barrel is a replacement dating from 1905 or later.

 

What I don’t understand is why the encircled “VP” is not on the top of the barrel and also duplicated on the frame.

  

The “VP” in a circle was used dating back to the late 1870s, and it was never stamped on the top of the barrel.  It was the “WP” in an oval that was introduced in July 1905, stamped on the top of the barrel.

Bert

  

Yes, of course!  I was looking at some Colt Single Action Army revolvers and the proofmark on them after circa 1905 and note that it is a “VP” in a triangle at the front of the left side of the trigger guard, similar to the VP under the barrel.  WP on Winchesters…

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/78/30/first-generation-colt-single-action-army-revolver-letter

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September 8, 2023 - 11:41 pm
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What does this all mean relative to the letter that doesn’t match and originality/non originality of the barrel and this rifle?

Letters with 28”OCTAGON barrel but in .32-40 and no mention of single set trigger?

I thank you in advance.

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September 8, 2023 - 11:49 pm
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clarence said

Bert H. said

As recorded by Winchester in their own notes, the “VP” stamp was “Violent Proof”, nad was applied after firing a 200% proof load through the barrel after it was initially bored but not yet rifled.

Art Gogan disagrees. Did you read his discussion?  The note you’re referring to (which Gogan references) looks like an off the cuff remark by a salesman or clerk in response to a question, not by anyone in the engineering dept. 

  

Art Gogan can’t disagree with anything… he passed away a good many years ago.  That stated, I would be the first to tell him that he got it wrong concerning the “VP” marking.  Again, documents were discovered in the archived records at the Cody Museum that clearly state “VP” = Violent Proof.

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September 8, 2023 - 11:50 pm
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mrcvs said

What does this all mean relative to the letter that doesn’t match and originality/non originality of the barrel and this rifle?

Letters with 28” OCTAGON barrel but in .32-40 and no mention of single set trigger?

I thank you in advance.

  

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September 8, 2023 - 11:51 pm
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mrcvs said

What does this all mean relative to the letter that doesn’t match and originality/non originality of the barrel and this rifle?

Letters with 27” OCTAGON barrel but in .32-40 and no mention of single set trigger?

I thank you in advance.

  

mrcvs said

What does this all mean relative to the letter that doesn’t match and originality/non originality of the barrel and this rifle?

Letters with 27” OCTAGON barrel but in .32-40 and no mention of single set trigger?

I thank you in advance.

  

I tried to edit and duplicated post.  It’s a 28” barrel.

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September 8, 2023 - 11:58 pm
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mrcvs said

What does this all mean relative to the letter that doesn’t match and originality/non originality of the barrel and this rifle?

Letters with 27” OCTAGON barrel but in .32-40 and no mention of single set trigger?

I thank you in advance.

  

Are you sure that it letters with a 27″ barrel ??  That would have been an extremely unique (rare) barrel length.

This is just my take, but with the barrel and trigger not matching the ledger record, I would be inclined to believe that the rifle was reworked by somebody other than Winchester.  During the timeframe your high-wall was returned to the factory, James P. Parker was the fellow who was assigned to the task of reworking the barrels, and he ordinarily stamped his initials on the underside of the barrels along with the worker order number.  The fact that the barrel on your rifle is not marked with anything indicating an R&R makes it very suspicious to me.

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September 9, 2023 - 12:01 am
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Bert H. said

Art Gogan can’t disagree with anything… he passed away a good many years ago.  That stated, I would be the first to tell him that he got it wrong concerning the “VP” marking.  Again, documents were discovered in the archived records at the Cody Museum that clearly state “VP” = Violent Proof.

Art may be dead, but his long experience in this subject lives on in his books & articles.  He saw the note, too, which may have prompted him to write his article; I say again, have you read it recently enough to remember what he said?  The “document” is a scrawl on a note pad, not anything looking remotely like an official piece of factory correspondence.  Are you saying that no one employed by Winchester ever made a mistake? 

Fall, ’94 is the issue I’m referring to, which I’m rereading myself.

Correction: Art doesn’t mention the note, but I’ve seen it elsewhere, maybe in Campbell’s books.

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September 9, 2023 - 12:38 am
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Clare

clarence said

Bert H. said

Art Gogan can’t disagree with anything… he passed away a good many years ago.  That stated, I would be the first to tell him that he got it wrong concerning the “VP” marking.  Again, documents were discovered in the archived records at the Cody Museum that clearly state “VP” = Violent Proof.

Art may be dead, but his long experience in this subject lives on in his books & articles.  He saw the note, too, which may have prompted him to write his article; I say again, have you read it recently enough to remember what he said?  The “document” is a scrawl on a note pad, not anything looking remotely like an official piece of factory correspondence.  Are you saying that no one employed by Winchester ever made a mistake? 

Fall, ’94 is the issue I’m referring to, which I’m rereading myself.

Correction: Art doesn’t mention the note, but I’ve seen it elsewhere, maybe in Campbell’s books.

  

Clarence,

Art and I used to cross paths on a regular basis back in the late 1980s through early 1990s… as we both were Oregonians at the time.  He was a great fellow to sit and chat with (which I did on more than one occasion).  That stated, he had his opinions about matters concerning old Winchesters, and some of them were not correct (as proved by later research efforts).  You apparently have your own opinion about this topic, but I most certainly do not share it.  

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September 9, 2023 - 1:14 am
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Bert H. said

mrcvs said

What does this all mean relative to the letter that doesn’t match and originality/non originality of the barrel and this rifle?

Letters with 27” OCTAGON barrel but in .32-40 and no mention of single set trigger?

I thank you in advance.

  

Are you sure that it letters with a 27″ barrel ??  That would have been an extremely unique (rare) barrel length.

This is just my take, but with the barrel and trigger not matching the ledger record, I would be inclined to believe that the rifle was reworked by somebody other than Winchester.  During the timeframe your high-wall was returned to the factory, James P. Parker was the fellow who was assigned to the task of reworking the barrels, and he ordinarily stamped his initials on the underside of the barrels along with the worker order number.  The fact that the barrel on your rifle is not marked with anything indicating an R&R makes it very suspicious to me.

Bert 

  

Fat fingers.  It has a 28” barrel and I tried to correct it.  I wanted to see what you or others had to say but I suspected what I saw was problematic with regards to the barrel as wouldn’t the 2039 on the buttstock and right side of the lower tang be also on the underside of the barrel?  I haven’t pulled these apart before to know but a technical volume that deals with this sort of stuff would prove interesting and welcome!  (Hint to Bert.  What you know needs to be recorded for posterity).

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September 9, 2023 - 3:56 pm
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Bert H. said

clarence said

mrcvs said

Please support, modify, or refute:

The “VP” in a circle on the underside of the barrel means this barrel was proofed 1905 or after.  Meaning subsequent work was performed 1905 or after and/or the barrel is a replacement dating from 1905 or later.

 

What I don’t understand is why the encircled “VP” is not on the top of the barrel and also duplicated on the frame.

  

Completely different purpose & meaning of the VP from the WP proofs applied to brl & rcvr.  Though the meaning of “VP” is disputed, if you will search back issues of the WACA Journal for an article by Art Gogan, you’ll find the most logical explanation I’ve read of what it meant.  NOBODY knows more about metallurgy, forging & casting procedures, & every other aspect of metal working as it applies to guns than Gogan.

  

As recorded by Winchester in their own notes, the “VP” stamp was for “Violent Proof”, and it was applied after passing inspection following firing a 200% proof load through the barrel after it was initially bored but not yet rifled.

  

Question:  How does one Violent Proof using a 200% proof load using black powder?

With smokeless powder, it would be a matter of selecting a load that takes up less than 50% of case capacity and doubling it.  With black powder, as black powder reloading necessitates the case be filled to capacity, how is that accomplished?  The only thing I can think of is to load a case using FFFFg (4F) powder instead of FFg (2 F) powder.  But that’s simply finer granularity allowing for more powder to fill a case, but that be twice (200%) a normal load?

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September 9, 2023 - 4:21 pm
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In answer to your question…

Question:  How does one Violent Proof using a 200% proof load using black powder?

After the barrel was initially bored (but not yet chambered) it was locked into a device and then loaded with the proof load (not in a cartridge).  The barrel was still a smooth bore and not milled to final length and contour.

This information was published by Winchester in the front section of nearly all of their pre-1910 catalogs.  I have attached a scanned copy of the January 1899 catalog that describes the process that Winchester used.  As an added note, most people (in my experience) tend to gloss over the information that Winchester so painstakingly published in their catalogs.

 

January-1899-Winchester-catalog.jpgImage Enlarger

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