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I recently purchased a pre-64 Model 70 Standard Rifle in 300 H&H. Serial number is 276XXX,which dates to 1953. To the untrained eye, gun appears mostly original. I do have a couple questions: The stock is a Monte Carlo stock. What determined a Monte Carlo stock from a standard straight combed stock? The gun also has inletted sling swivels (alà Super Grade) rather than what I thought were standard post mounted sling studs. Were each of these just special order items, or just luck of the draw.
Thanks you for your help and I look forward to learning a lot more about Winchester rifles from the experts here.
“If it ain’t a Colt or a Winchester, it’s probably a copy.”
Begger,
Consider at registering in the forum so that your posts don’t have to be moderated and approved before they appear. Or better yet, Join the Association! Yearly dues are quite reasonable and include access to all of the club magazine content and include a subscription to the quarterly magazine and ready access to tons of information about Winchester Collectables, plus full access to all of the Forums features such as easy image posting for specific questions or sharing.
Enjoy the forum!
Michael Hager
Forum Administrator
Thank you for the welcome. I was under the impression I did register, and only my first post had to be approved. Always willing to be schooled though…
“If it ain’t a Colt or a Winchester, it’s probably a copy.”
Beggar,
Congrats on your new model 70 – 300 H&H is one of my favorites!
Regarding the 300 H&H with a Monte Carlo stock – this was a standard catalog option (catalog code G7039CN). An upgrade, if you will, as it was one step up in price from the lowest cost .300 H&H you could buy, which was the same rifle, but with the low comb stock (catalog code G7009C). The catalog code which included the MC stock also included a Marble 69 folding rear sight rather than the Winchester 22G spring sight. Winchester marketed the MC stock rifle as a step up from the low comb rifle.
The Super Grade style swivel bases were offered on any rifle as a factory special order item. There were no catalog codes other than the Super Grade rifle which included them as default. Rule talks about this special order feature in his book, but does not give any indication how scarce it is – my guess is it is pretty rare. I have seen the SG style swivel bases on probably a dozen standard model 70 rifles over the years and was able to determine at least half of them were modified stocks and not a special order installation from the factory. I have seen a few, however, which I am convinced were authentic from the factory. If you are interested in the telltale differences between a factory installation and what a typical modification job looks like, let me know and I will send some pics.
Congrats again!
Justin
Thank you so much. This was exactly the information I was in search of. I would be very interested in finding out whether the inleted swivels were in fact factory, or added after the fact.
“If it ain’t a Colt or a Winchester, it’s probably a copy.”
Ok, here you go.
In the second photo below, there are four pre-64 model 70 stocks. From top to bottom, they are:
- A genuine factory Super Grade stock
- A standard sporter stock, modified to have SG swivel bases
- A standard sporter stock, modified to have SG swivel bases
- A standard sporter stock which has not been modified
On the underside, stocks 1, 2 & 3 all appear to have the same Super Grade swivel base installation. In all cases, the external inletting for the swivel base is expertly cut and it looks like factory work. The swivel base for stock #1 (the factory SG) is shown below), but the others look identical.
The noteworthy differences are only visible on the inside of the stock.
In the photo below, the two modified stocks (#2 & #3) have several problems:
- They each were modified by taking advantage of the existing front swivel hole and (with varying degrees of craftsmanship) adding a second hole to accommodate the second screw of the SG swivel base. This is different from how the factory installed this type of swivel base (see stock #1).
- In a factory installation of the SG swivel bases, Winchester did not need to locate the base forward to utilize an existing front swivel hole. Instead, they located the swivel base further aft on the stock where there is more forestock width to accommodate the wider swivel base and the surrounding relief cut for the wide SG swivel.
- Stocks #2 & #3 each originally had the normal factory inletting for a standard stock front swivel nut. In the case of stock #3, even though the outside of the stock looked expertly done, the inside looks like it was done with a hatchet. Furthermore, stock #3 used two standard stock nuts on the inside, rather than the SG swivel base nuts. In the case of stock #2, the standard stock front swivel inletting has been expertly filled with a small piece of walnut in order to use the SG swivel base nuts, but this is clearly not factory work, despite the craftsmanship.
Hope this helps!
Justin
As soon as I can get mine taken down, I’ll try to let you know what I’ve got. Thank you so much for the explanation.
Looking forward to learning a lot about Winchesters from the experts on this forum.
Barton
“If it ain’t a Colt or a Winchester, it’s probably a copy.”
Justin,
Great pictorial! Thanks for posting that info.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
November 5, 2014
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Hey Justin-
Thanks for the great post!!!
One question for anybody who might know… On the earliest M70 SG stocks (through 1937 at least – as far as I can tell from ‘surveying’ this feature) the fore end sling swivel base was further forward than it came to be later on:
Presumably, the reason for relocating the base was b/c of the tendency to develop wood splits between the front edge of the base and the black bakelite fore end tip (as shown nicely in the first photo). So if the factory was going to install a SG swivel base on a standard stock (no fore end tip – no wood splitting) do you think they would have put the base as far back as they did on SGs after ’37-’38 or leave it further forward to get something closer to the standard spacing between front and rear swivels?
Just curious… I’ve never seen a standard rifle with legit factory installed SG swivels so have no idea…
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Thanks Lou.
Your post has me thinking. I always assumed the front Super Grade swivel bases were located further back on the forestock so there was more width for the installation. However, your point about how easily the wood can chip or crack between that inletting and the ebony tip, along with the fact Winchester located the base forward in the early production rifles, makes a compelling case the reason was what you stated. Thanks for that insightful suggestion!
I need to think a bit more about the location. I will also do some comparisons to the presumably genuine SG swivel base installed on a standard stock located in Rule’s book. Until then, here is the rest of the story from above:
On the outside of the same four stocks, you can see the swivel inletting and bases installed.
Ok, I have finally had a chance to dig into this one a bit. Here is how I went about it.
First, I excluded the position of Super Grade (SG) swivel bases as a part of my consideration, based on what Lou pointed out – that they may have been located further aft due to considerations of the ebony tip on the SG rifles.
This left me to compare the location of known faked SG swivel base installations on non SG stocks.
Using the photo from Rule’s book (Figure 8-17), I scaled the photo to match my own, using the swivel base as a consistent element for making the scaling possible.
This immediately revealed an inconsistency between my fake SG swivel base installation (which used the factory front swivel hole as one of the holes for the SG base), in that the end of the stocks did not align.
Working on the assumption all standard stocks came out of the factory at very close to the same overall length, I have aligned the ends of the stocks to see where the front swivel hole location falls on the stock with the factory installed SG swivel bases.
What this reveals is that there is not a shared swivel hole with the factory standard stock. Consistent with the idea any swivel installation would be located based on some design logic, what we see is that the factory installed SG swivel base would result in a sling geometry for carrying the rifle which is nearly identical to the geometry of a standard stock with the bow style swivel.
While it is impossible to know with absolute certainty if this methodology is correct, I personally would question the authenticity of any standard stock with SG swivel bases, if those SG swivel bases seemed to use the identical hole location as the standard stock and swivel.
I hope this is helpful!
Justin
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Justin-
I think your methodology above is correct. Maybe seewin or vicvanb can comment? We’re getting out of my depth (I’ve never handled a legit M70 standard with SG swivels) and I’d like to learn.
Your first photo in the 11/29 post shows that even the early position would not put the front swivel loop (center of the SG swivel base) in the position corresponding to the standard rifle. To do that the swivel base on a SG would have to touch (or invade) the plastic forend tip.
The comparison you posted today backs that up. If I were the factory and asked to provide SG swivel bases on a standard stock, then I would likely locate the base where I could maintain the standard rifle distance between front and rear swivel base centers. In other words I would not put the front SG swivel base hole where the standard rifle hole was, but further forward so the center of the swivel base aligned with where a standard swivel would center.
Anyone out there with a genuine example they’d care to post?
An interesting point in Mr. Rule’s book… He talks about the change in the size of the uncheckered “diamond” in SG stocks, which were larger on early stocks, but never mentions that the front swivel was relocated somewhere around ’37-38. I am sure he saw this and that this is the reason for the checkering change, but not sure why he did not include the info in his book.
Does RCR still look at this site? I’ve got a dozen questions I bother him with… Starting with “Where are the M70 ‘Basic Nomenclature Lists’ shown in RCRs book today?” 
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
As the OP, let me answer my original question. My standard grade rifle does have the SG sling swivels, but, alas, they are in fact not original. The front hole of the inleted swivel is the original hole for the post swivel.
Thanks for all the discussion. Great information.
“If it ain’t a Colt or a Winchester, it’s probably a copy.”
November 5, 2014
Offline
Hi Begger-
I have a similar problem that even Justin’s info can’t solve for me… Oh the joys of Winchester collecting!!!
It’s a M54 1st model carbine in 30 WCF (S/N 30426A) that is fit with SG style swivel bases (these carbines did not have any swivels or swivel bases as cataloged):
Thing is that this rifle has a stainless steel barrel with the early “Japanned” (baked on lacquer) finish (Winchester’s original and failed attempt at blackening stainless barrels). That alone makes it a “special order” gun as the stainless barrel was a $7.00 extra cost option in 1932. So… As long as somebody was ordering the rifle with that barrel, did they also order the swivel bases, or did somebody else add them later? Since the M54 carbine didn’t have swivels standard, I cannot compare the holes to where they “should have been”… Either way, I don’t really care, as it’s a nice little bolt action 30-30… But I don’t think I’d ever convince the skeptics one way or another…
Cheers,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
I guess the only possible help might be the quality of the work on the inside of the stock. If it’s really crappy, probably not original. If it’s really neat…….
“If it ain’t a Colt or a Winchester, it’s probably a copy.”
Hi Lou et al.–
I too have never seen a Model 70 Standard stock with factory original Super Grade sling swivel bases despite looking at many Standard stocks over the last 50+ years. They must be exceptionally rare.
Roger Rule occasionally advertises rifles on one of the Internet sites. You could contact him from one of his ads. If you want details send me an email message.
Of course, we all know that Roger did a truly exceptional job with the Model 70 book. It is far and away the best reference available for an individual Winchester model compared to the books done on other Models. All Model 70 collectors owe Roger a huge debt of gratitude for producing a reference source that elevated our knowledge of Model 70s far beyond what we thought we knew before his book was published. But Roger was human and made a few mistakes (as we all have) when writing the book. Over the years I discovered a few and spoke with Roger about them on a several occasions. And there are a few M70s pictured in the book that are not factory original rifles.
Keep on learning!
Vic
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