Avatar
Search
Forum Scope




Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_Feed sp_PrintTopic sp_TopicIcon
New in box pre-war Model 70 in 300 Magnum--opinions and advice please!
sp_NewTopic Add Topic
Avatar
Troutdale, OR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2514
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
January 23, 2025 - 12:38 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Found this new-in-box pre-war (1938 manufacture date) model 70 in 300 Magnum at a local gun store today.  Dealer is asking $4,000 but is willing to take $3,800 for it.  Rifle is brand new and unfired and includes the original box that has the matching serial number 22354 written on the box (very lightly in pencil but is there)–a literal time-capsule.  Box has the original brown wrap packing material, pamphlets, warranty card, etc. still in the box.  Wanted to post photos on the forum and ask for opinions before going back to try to work out a deal tomorrow.  Hoping Lou and Bo will chime in and advise regarding price, etc.

Thanks,

Don

20250122_150611.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150620.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150632.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150636.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150641.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150708.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150713.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150719.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150724.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150728.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150742.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150807.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150812.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150834.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150838.jpgImage Enlarger20250122_150905.jpgImage Enlarger

Avatar
Kingston, WA
Admin
Forum Posts: 12199
Member Since:
April 15, 2005
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
January 23, 2025 - 1:05 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Don,

That is another Fake box.  Winchester did not print Spanish text on box labels.  Undoubtedly this is another one of the fakes created by SDOG.

Bert

WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
High-walls-1-002-C-reduced2.jpg

Avatar
Troutdale, OR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2514
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
January 23, 2025 - 1:23 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
Don,

That is another Fake box.  Winchester did not print Spanish text on box labels.  Undoubtedly this is another one of the fakes created by SDOG.

Bert

  

Wow Bert!!  That guy is a real P.O.S. This one traveled all the way to Portland, OR.  Instances as this are exactly why I waited to post on the forum before working out any kind of deal.  Now this makes me suspicious about the whole package.  What are your opinions of the rifle?  Kinda makes me paranoid now and maybe I should just forget that I ever saw it and move on.  Holding the rifle in hand looked good and legit, but I am a novice when it comes to model 70’s and can do quite a bit of damage to myself if not careful.  I thought I struck gold, but maybe just fool’s gold.  What would you do in this instance?  Definitely appreciate the feedback.

Don

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1146
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
January 23, 2025 - 1:41 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Hi Don-

I’ll have to think about this one…  Whenever these show up the first reaction should be “No way!!!”.  At least that’s MY first reaction… Laugh

Model 70 boxes and labels are very hard to sort out, since so many surviving (empty) original boxes have been “repurposed” to create “NIB” Model 70s.  Not even counting the “repro” boxes.  Another one appeared on GI today that was a gun sold recently at auction and has now acquired it’s “original box”… My “survey” of this topic has more “noise” than “pattern” to it…

Pending further consideration, here are three photos of a contemporary Model 70. box..  These images are from another WACA member, not my gun, and believed to be legit.  I know that the first variations of Model 70 instruction manuals were printed in English-Spanish or English-Spanish-Portuguese…

1940-box-3.jpgImage Enlarger1940-box-2.jpgImage Enlarger1940-box-1.jpgImage Enlarger

Good Luck!!!

Lou

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
Troutdale, OR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2514
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
January 23, 2025 - 1:54 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Louis Luttrell said
Hi Don-

I’ll have to think about this one…  Whenever these show up the first reaction should be “No way!!!”.  At least that’s MY first reaction… Laugh

Model 70 boxes and labels are very hard to sort out, since so many surviving (empty) original boxes have been “repurposed” to create “NIB” Model 70s.  Not even counting the “repro” boxes.  Another one appeared on GI today that was a gun sold recently at auction and has now acquired it’s “original box”… My “survey” of this topic has more “noise” than “pattern” to it…

Pending further consideration, here are three photos of a contemporary Model 70. box..  These images are from another WACA member, not my gun, and believed to be legit.  I know that the first variations of Model 70 instruction manuals were printed in English-Spanish or English-Spanish-Portuguese…

1940-box-3.jpgImage Enlarger1940-box-2.jpgImage Enlarger1940-box-1.jpgImage Enlarger

Good Luck!!!

Lou

  

Hmmm…now I really don’t know what to think or do…

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1146
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
January 23, 2025 - 2:06 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Don-

Not that it proves anything, but this rifle sold via RIA in 2017 (with box)…  Not new to the survey…

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/70/2278/pre64-winchester-model-70-bolt-action-300-hh-mag-rifle

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
Troutdale, OR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2514
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
January 23, 2025 - 2:08 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Looking through Roger Rule’s book, he mentions “…included with the earliest rifles, a green marketing pamphlet.”  The subject rifle/box had one of these green marketing pamphlets in it.  I should have taken a photo.  Below is from page 58 in Rule’s book.  Does this change the assessment any??

P1090784.JPGImage Enlarger 

sp_PlupAttachments Attachments
Avatar
Troutdale, OR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2514
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
January 23, 2025 - 2:22 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Yep–that’s the gun Lou!  Great detective work–didn’t even think to Google the serial number.  RIA’s description (below) points out the reproduction box, along with the polished and re-numbered bolt to the gun, some re-finishing to the trigger guard, reoiled stock…Waaaay too many red flags for me!!  I agree with Bert–another one of “Selling Dad’s Old Guns” fraudulent guns.  Dabbing into model 70’s is proving to be a dangerous endeavor for me.  The old saying, “if it’s too good to be true…” comes to mind.  You guys just saved me a whole lot of disappointment and $$$$.  Thank God for this forum and all of you guys!!

Don

Pre-World War II Winchester Model 70 Bolt Action Rifle in .300 H&H Magnum with Box

Manufacturer: Winchester
Model: 70
Type: Rifle
Gauge: 300 H&H Mag
Barrel: 26 inch round
Finish: blue
Grip:
Stock: walnut
Item Views: 2291
Item Interest: Average
Serial Number: R6HJy2TkAAAAASUVORK5CYII=
Catalog Page: 149
Class: Curio & Relic Long Gun
Description:
Manufactured in 1939. Hooded ramp front and elevation adjustable rear sights, standard Winchester markings including the factory oval proof on the barrel and receiver, early receiver correctly tapped for sight/scope mounting, pre-war safety, polished bolt re-numbered to gun, sling swivels and checkered pistol grip stock with checkered steel buttplate. The reproduction Winchester factory style box is re-numbered to the gun. Comes with a Model 70 brochure.
Rating Definition:
Very fine. The barrel and receiver retain 95% plus of the original blue showing some minor high edge wear, limited minor scratches and some thinning to a brown on the bolt handle. The trigger guard is refinished with most remaining. The very fine reoiled stock shows the slightest handling marks and crisp checkering overall. Mechanically excellent. The box is fine with most of the labels remaining and a faded end label.
Avatar
Ohio
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 69
Member Since:
August 8, 2024
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
January 23, 2025 - 2:31 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

I would need to see the inside of the box, and all the paperwork.  Does it have a hang tag?  If so, please take a picture of it.  A piece of wood would be found on the muzzle side of the box.  Also, it should have a cardboard box that would house the bolt.  

Avatar
Winchester, VA
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 1146
Member Since:
November 5, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
10
January 23, 2025 - 2:32 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory sp_QuotePost

Hi Don-

It was in the survey…  I didn’t “Google” it…

I kind of like the gun…  I’d pay the $1800 for it that it brought on RIA in 2017…  It’s either a nice restoration or an original that’s been “touched up”…  The box is sketchy, but I think the label text is period accurate… Maybe I’m wrong…  

FWIW… I don’t believe auction house descriptions (good or bad) any more that I believe gun seller’s “stories”…  Make up your own mind…  

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

WACA-Signauture-3.jpg

Avatar
Ohio
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 69
Member Since:
August 8, 2024
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
11
January 23, 2025 - 2:37 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Once again.  Good job. Louis!

Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 734
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
12
January 24, 2025 - 2:54 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Once again and all together: The putatively pristine pre-war Model 70 woods is deep and dark and full of Tigers. 

Here’s my take on that subject:

1. It is a very expensive place in which to be cured of your innocence. 

2. There are still lots of sound, field-used, early post-war examples that clean up beautifully for those of us who want one.  

3. For those trying to resist the siren call of an NIB specimen miraculously preserved in Grandpa’s attic — if our Maximum Guru Luttrell himself says he can’t be sure and it’s on you, run away and save your wool for a future shearing. 

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 200
Member Since:
June 1, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
13
January 24, 2025 - 3:03 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Extremely well said, Zebulon!

I tend to shy away from guns that are too “pristine” — signs of use are signs of authenticity as far as I’m concerned.  And as far as rifles that have been somehow, against all the odds, miraculously preserved in their original boxes for the better part of a century, I just walk away, since virtually no one chose to spend all their hard earned brass to buy a Winchester only to squirrel it away and never use it.  That just defies common sense.

BRP

Avatar
Ohio
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 69
Member Since:
August 8, 2024
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
14
January 24, 2025 - 3:20 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Blue Ridge Parson,  You make a very good point.  If you bought a Winchester in times gone past you were going to use it.  That is why when you find a new in the box gun it is almost like finding a hens tooth.  To my dismay most of the new  in the box guns found for sell Today, are not as advertised.  They are out there, and if one appears, and it is correct.  It of course will bring a large premium.  

Avatar
Troutdale, OR
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 2514
Member Since:
June 26, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
15
January 24, 2025 - 3:29 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Very well said fellas!!  Was sure clouded by the “wow factor” on this one before running it across the experts on this forum and common sense kicking in.  Been studying Roger Rule’s book and he has a number of legit NIB specimens pictured in it which I’m sure fed the fever a bit.  Thought maybe I found one he had missed, but certainly not so!  Learned a valuable lesson without losing my shirt!!  

Don

Avatar
Northern edge of the D/FW Metromess
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 5929
Member Since:
November 7, 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
16
January 24, 2025 - 3:48 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Most of us don’t participate but there is certainly a market for “fantasy” guns and as Donald pointed out RIA made a good faith effort to point out the discrepancies eight years ago. Apparently it is a lucrative market, not sure why they try to pass them off as original unless they are looking for a rich, ignorant sucker. OTOH that works every now and then. I don’t play in that ballpark but must admit it provides good entertainment.

 

Mike

Life Member TSRA, Endowment Member NRA
BBHC Member, TGCA Member
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call, Lonesome Dove
Some of my favorite recipes start out with a handful of depleted counterbalance devices.-TXGunNut
Presbyopia be damned, I'm going to shoot this thing! -TXGunNut
Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 734
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
17
January 24, 2025 - 6:44 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Like a Circus Maximus.

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Avatar
Texas
Member
WACA Member
Forum Posts: 734
Member Since:
January 20, 2023
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
18
January 25, 2025 - 11:23 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_QuotePost

Bert H. said
Don,

That is another Fake box.  Winchester did not print Spanish text on box labels.  Undoubtedly this is another one of the fakes created by SDOG.

Bert

  

Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus. A legal doctrine that permits the finder of fact (the jury or, in a bench trial, the judge) to disregard the entire testimony of a witness who has lied about a material fact. It is based on the presumption that one who lies about one thing is likely to lie about other things. Particularly if he has lied under oath. 

- Bill 

 

WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist

"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.

Forum Timezone: UTC 0
Most Users Ever Online: 4623
Currently Online: Anthony, tsbccut
Guest(s) 78
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
clarence: 7119
TXGunNut: 5929
Chuck: 5348
steve004: 4874
1873man: 4568
Big Larry: 2475
twobit: 2417
mrcvs: 2055
TR: 1838
Forum Stats:
Groups: 1
Forums: 18
Topics: 14060
Posts: 124366

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1977
Members: 9595
Moderators: 4
Admins: 3
Navigation