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I stopped-in at a local gun store yesterday, and among other items they had a very nice Hi-wall .45-70 sporting rifle. After some discussion and haggling, we agreed on a price, and made the deal. Only on the way out did I notice the additional legend on the barrel “Browning Brothers, Ogden, U.T.” The rifle is #22166 (1888?), and is ordinary (though in very good overall condition) except for 2 things (other than the barrel marking): the rifle buttplate is trapped, and the base of an original tang sight is still in-place on the tang.
I believe the trapped buttplate is a special-order feature: is this correct?
The tang sight base (and it still has the lower half of the staff) appears to be an unusual Winchester sight, identified as the Model 62A (page 502, Madis). Is anyone making a reproduction of this sight, or is there a hope in hell of finding the remaining parts of one?
Finally, is it possible to find out in advance from the Buffalo Bill people whether a potential letter will verify the original shipment destination and other features, or does one simply pay the money and take the chance?
Thanks;
mhb – Mike
If my aging memory serves me right, the “Browning Brothers, Ogden, U.T.” probably indicates that this is one of the guns Winchester sent to Browning in lieu of $$$ payment. Winchester often paid Browning with product rather than cash.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Wincacher:
That is very likely – the stamp used to apply the Browning marking is illustrated in Madis’ book as one belonging to the Winchester company. I’m sure that Browning Brothers must have retailed a fairly large number of Winchester arms, but it pleases me that the Single Shot is the first of the many Browning designs bought and produced by Winchester.
mhb – Mike
Mike,
The “BROWNING BROS. OGDEN U.T.” stamped was not owned by Winchester. Browning made it, and marked the barrels of the guns with it after they were received from Winchester. Your high-wall was a patent payment item.
Later this evening I will check my records to see if I have it in my survey, and any other information that I might have on it.
In regards to the 62A tang sight base, it is highly unlikely that it is original to the rifle. Over the past 30 years, I have look at many thousands of ledger entries for the Model 1885, and thus far, I have not yet found one with that sight listed. I have found several thousand listed with Lyman tang sights, or with the Winchester mid-range vernier tang sight.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert:
Thanks for the reply!
It is likely that I mis-understood the information about the stamp in the Madis book. If you are conducting a survey of the Browning Brothers arms (or just the SS rifles), I would be happy to provide any information you can use about the one I just acquired. And I would certainly appreciate any information you may be able to provide about this rifle.
The tang site base appears to have been on the rifle for a long time, in any case, and is almost certainly the model 62A, since no other tang sight I am familiar with or have seen an illustration of looks/works like that model, or is mounted to the tang with only a single (forward) screw. The 62A is listed in the Madis book as having been made/offered for the SS: is this correct? In any case, I like the concept and appearance of the 62A, and would like to keep it on the rifle, if a repro is available (particularly one which is interchangeable with the original), or original parts can be found. My favorite tang sight for the SS is the Lyman 103, which I have on several rifles, but they are very hard to find these days, and quite expensive.
mhb – Mike
Bert,
Were the patent payment guns provided to Browning standard guns, thus listed in the ledgers ?
I would assume Browning would not only stamp the guns, but add special sights, etc. if requested by their customers ?
Bill
Bert,
I meant to add, does your survey include many Browning guns ?
Bill
mhb said
Bert:
Thanks for the reply!
It is likely that I mis-understood the information about the stamp in the Madis book. If you are conducting a survey of the Browning Brothers arms (or just the SS rifles), I would be happy to provide any information you can use about the one I just acquired. And I would certainly appreciate any information you may be able to provide about this rifle.
The tang site base appears to have been on the rifle for a long time, in any case, and is almost certainly the model 62A, since no other tang sight I am familiar with or have seen an illustration of looks/works like that model, or is mounted to the tang with only a single (forward) screw. The 62A is listed in the Madis book as having been made/offered for the SS: is this correct? In any case, I like the concept and appearance of the 62A, and would like to keep it on the rifle, if a repro is available (particularly one which is interchangeable with the original), or original parts can be found. My favorite tang sight for the SS is the Lyman 103, which I have on several rifles, but they are very hard to find these days, and quite expensive.
mhb – Mike
Mike,
I am tracking just the Model 1885 rifles with the Browning Brothers stamp on them. I will be able to determine how many may have been on the same work order as your rifle.
In regards to the 62A sight, Madis is incorrect in regards to it being made for the SS rifles. It was designed for the Model 1873, and it was not very commonly installed. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I have never encountered a 62A sight on a Model 1885, or found one listed in the factory records with it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert:
Thanks again! I am looking forward to anything you can add on this rifle, and hoping you may have other specifics from the work order or other factory record – is there any other information you require for your data base?
mhb – Mike
Blueliner said
Bert,
Were the patent payment guns provided to Browning standard guns, thus listed in the ledgers ?
I would assume Browning would not only stamp the guns, but add special sights, etc. if requested by their customers ?
Bill
Bill,
Nearly all of them were standard rifles. The Browning brothers specified the caliber and configuration of the rifles before Winchester assembled and shipped them, so it would have been quite rare for them to have changed the sights after receiving them from Winchester.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Blueliner said
Bert,
I meant to add, does your survey include many Browning guns ?
Bill
Yes, it does. I have thus far identified several hundred Model 1885 rifles that were shipped to Browning.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
mhb said
Bert:
Thanks again! I am looking forward to anything you can add on this rifle, and hoping you may have other specifics from the work order or other factory record – is there any other information you require for your data base?
mhb – Mike
Mike,
Can you send me pictures of the rifle? If so, please send them to me at [email protected]
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert:
I can and will, but it will be a few days, as my camera is out on loan (sigh). Will provide photos as soon as possible.
mhb – Mike
mhb said
Bert:
I can and will, but it will be a few days, as my camera is out on loan (sigh). Will provide photos as soon as possible.
mhb – Mike
Mike,
No rush… I myself am away from home (more than 3,000 miles) on a work assignment trip at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert:
I have forwarded some photos by e-mail – I hope they are helpful, though the quality is not great. I mis-reported the serial due to a typo – it is actually 22616.
I also tried to post the photos here, but couldn’t make it happen – neither could I edit the original post to correct the SN.
I would appreciate it if you might post the photos for me, and am looking forward to any additional information on the rifle you may be able to provide.
Still hoping to be able to restore the 62A rear sight…
Thanks!
mhb – Mike
Mike,
Here are the pictures you sent to me;
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Mike,
Serial number 22616 is listed as a 45-70, 30″ #3 octagon barrel, with standard sights. No mention is made of the trap door butt plate, but I have seen a fair number of the rifles sent to Browning with them. I did find two other rifles on the same order number 7326 (serial numbers 22650 & 22675).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert:
Thank you very much!
Do you conclude that the rifle is correct, as a Browning Brothers-sold piece, on the available evidence?
And do you agree with the identification of the tang sight base as a Winchester 62A?
Best;
mhb – Mike
Mike,
Yes, I am quite confident that it is an original Winchester Patent payment rifle that was shipped to the Browning Brothers.
I do not know enough about the Winchester No. 62A sight to positively identify it on your rifle. It could be a 62B. What I do know, is that it does not belong on the rifle. If it were me, I would remove it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert:
Thanks once again!
If I can’t find the parts to restore the 62 tang sight, I’d have to remove it – meanwhile, I’ll take the base off the rifle and scrounge through my sight accumulation and see if there is a suitable candidate tang sight for use in shooting the rifle.
Your help is appreciated.
mhb – Mike
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