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November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
steve004 said
So this thread started out about the .22 Hornet and now we’re talking about .270’s. My gosh but I love this place!
To start with I didn’t have anything to say as I’ve never owned a .22 Hornet. Now the .270 WCF – yes, more than one. Also, I’ve had a .270 Weatherby, .270 Ackley Magnum and a .270 Gibbs (which was one-half of a switch barrel rifle – the other barrel was a .280 A.I.). All fine cartridges that would do anything (within reason) quite nicely.
Quite frankly I’m very interested in the 22 Hornet and would like to hear more about it as I have no personal experience with it. Maybe someday. My prodigal 670 in 30-06 (oh, well) has arrived and I’ve been perusing the Boyd site to replace one I had lying around when I put this rifle together for a deer camp loaner a dozen or so years ago. Not a project suitable for discussion on a forum focused on collectible Winchesters but it’s one I can afford.
Mike
footYou can easily afford a decent Model 43… but you can’t cast bullets for it. I have a substantial stock of Hornady, Nosler, Remington, Sierra, and Speer .224 Hornet bullets on hand. My powder supply consists of Lil’Gun and A2400 (I ran out of IMR 4227 years ago). I have at least 2,500 Hornet cases in my stockpile (mostly R-P brass).
Bert
Maybe so, Bert. I’m getting my foot in the door for about $300 (Boyd’s pillar bedded laminated stock) and the rifle easily (as is!) put the final four rounds (after sight adjustments) into less than 1″; poor sun angle, cheap scope and discard pile Birch stock notwithstanding. I think she’s a shooter. I don’t know who did the trigger job (pretty sure it wasn’t me) but it was pretty much at the edge of what this trigger is capable of. But you’re wrong about not being able to cast for the 22 Hornet. I certainly can if I want to invest in a mould and sizing die to produce bullets that would never let the 22 Hornet do what it was meant to do. I really like the conformation of the OP’s M70 but the 43 is indeed more appropriate for my cash-poor circumstances. On top of that the 43 in 22 Hornet a pretty cool rifle it its own right.
I’m waiting for a big brown truck. Driver knows to bring treats for neighbor’s big dogs.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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TXGunNut said Maybe so, Bert. I’m getting my foot in the door for about $300 (Boyd’s pillar bedded laminated stock) and the rifle easily (as is!) put the final four rounds (after sight adjustments) into less than 1″; poor sun angle, cheap scope and discard pile Birch stock notwithstanding. I think she’s a shooter. I don’t know who did the trigger job (pretty sure it wasn’t me) but it was pretty much at the edge of what this trigger is capable of. But you’re wrong about not being able to cast for the 22 Hornet. I certainly can if I want to invest in a mould and sizing die to produce bullets that would never let the 22 Hornet do what it was meant to do. I really like the conformation of the OP’s M70 but the 43 is indeed more appropriate for my cash-poor circumstances. On top of that the 43 in 22 Hornet a pretty cool rifle it its own right.
I’m waiting for a big brown truck. Driver knows to bring treats for neighbor’s big dogs.
Mike
I can’t imagine what it would take to cast 35 – 45 grain .224 bullets… at a minimum, they would need to be gas checked, then individually weighted and sorted.
I too am waiting for the big brown truck… I have several boxes of 45 ACP bullets arriving from Midway for my next reloading project.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
TXGunNut said Maybe so, Bert. I’m getting my foot in the door for about $300 (Boyd’s pillar bedded laminated stock) and the rifle easily (as is!) put the final four rounds (after sight adjustments) into less than 1″; poor sun angle, cheap scope and discard pile Birch stock notwithstanding. I think she’s a shooter. I don’t know who did the trigger job (pretty sure it wasn’t me) but it was pretty much at the edge of what this trigger is capable of. But you’re wrong about not being able to cast for the 22 Hornet. I certainly can if I want to invest in a mould and sizing die to produce bullets that would never let the 22 Hornet do what it was meant to do. I really like the conformation of the OP’s M70 but the 43 is indeed more appropriate for my cash-poor circumstances. On top of that the 43 in 22 Hornet a pretty cool rifle it its own right.
I’m waiting for a big brown truck. Driver knows to bring treats for neighbor’s big dogs.
Mike
I can’t imagine what it would take to cast 35 – 45 grain .224 bullets… at a minimum, they would need to be gas checked, then individually weighted and sorted.
I too am waiting for the big brown truck… I have several boxes of 45 ACP bullets arriving from Midway for my next reloading project.
Bert
Bert-
Theoretically I would weigh/cull before lube/sizing and installing gas checks. In my humble opinion any 22 CF cast rifle bullet will require a gas check. Last time my 1911’s needed feeding I ordered up a H&G 68 clone mould and cast a few thousand. One range session with factory ammo cost more than the mould. A few one-to-two-hour sessions is all it took to get them cast, lubed and sized. In a few more sessions my Dillon 550 had assembled them into pretty decent range fodder. I got a little carried away with a social equipment sight update project recently and burned through a few hundred rounds, may need to run that mould again soon. I don’t enjoy loading .22 bullets but I have a .223 Contender that really likes my loads, thank goodness it doesn’t eat much. I’m pretty sure sizing and installing GC’s on .22 bullets would prove even more tedious than loading the bullets so I think I’ll pass. I like the performance of the j-word bullets you’re using for your 22 Hornet projects, I even have a few of them on the shelf from a long-ago 22-250 project.
I’m still waiting for a range report from your 22 Hornet reloading project. We both need to work a little harder on this retirement thing.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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Mike and Bert, Both of you have more reloading experience than I do, but Mike mentioned reloading the M43 for the Hornet.
In my life I’ve owned 3 Hornet rifles, the first two being rear-locking bolt actions, a Kimber of Oregon 82B and an Anschutz 1732DKL. I noticed that with any loads approaching factory velocities, there was a significant amount of case stretching. The Anschutz even had a dire warning: Wiederladungen munition verboten und die garantie kaput. Ja.
Had I kept either of them, I would have had its chamber reamed to K specs. A feature I believe Bert’s M70 enjoys.
If you are going to stay with the Winchester brand, consider a K chambered M70 at a discount from one with a virginal chamber.
Bert will know and advise case life, which I understand to be considerably improved by Kilbourn’s shoulder. No experience.
I love the look of the 43 Sporting and had an eye out for one. However, given prices for a nice one, I’d hesitate to lengthen the chamber. If I’d found a K version or even an Improved Bee, with a realistic discount, before I blew the budget on the Ruger, I’d have grabbed it. (Went to Bass Pro for safe socks and saw the Ruger’s wavy Walnut at 30 yards.)
My own solution was a Ruger #1AB (Alex Henry forearm and ramped sights, 24″ barrel.) Stretching minimal with all but gopher baroque loads.
PS. unless the weather is howling or raining, I WILL get to the club rimfire range on a weekday to sort out my several 22 issues, .this coming week.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
March 31, 2009
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Never owned a Hornet, but I do use the brass to shoot this.
January 20, 2023
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Chuck, that’s a very nice High Wall. A little overbuilt for its chambering but never mind. I assume a .223 groove barrel or is it .224 and the .223 bullet of the Hornet was just because of the availability of the Springfield barrel to Whelen et al.? I always wondered.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
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Zebulon said
Mike and Bert, Both of you have more reloading experience than I do, but Mike mentioned reloading the M43 for the Hornet.
In my life I’ve owned 3 Hornet rifles, the first two being rear-locking bolt actions, a Kimber of Oregon 82B and an Anschutz 1732DKL. I noticed that with any loads approaching factory velocities, there was a significant amount of case stretching. The Anschutz even had a dire warning: Wiederladungen munition verboten und die garantie kaput. Ja.
Had I kept either of them, I would have had its chamber reamed to K specs. A feature I believe Bert’s M70 enjoys.
If you are going to stay with the Winchester brand, consider a K chambered M70 at a discount from one with a virginal chamber.
Bert will know and advise case life, which I understand to be considerably improved by Kilbourn’s shoulder. No experience.
I love the look of the 43 Sporting and had an eye out for one. However, given prices for a nice one, I’d hesitate to lengthen the chamber. If I’d found a K version or even an Improved Bee, with a realistic discount, before I blew the budget on the Ruger, I’d have grabbed it. (Went to Bass Pro for safe socks and saw the Ruger’s wavy Walnut at 30 yards.)
My own solution was a Ruger #1AB (Alex Henry forearm and ramped sights, 24″ barrel.) Stretching minimal with all but gopher baroque loads.
PS. unless the weather is howling or raining, I WILL get to the club rimfire range on a weekday to sort out my several 22 issues, .this coming week.
Bill,
I personally do not recommend modifying a Model 43 Hornet to the K-Hornet, especially the Pre-A series rifles. The M43 is perfectly fine with standard 22 Hornet factory ammo, but it can (and will) develop head space issues with ammo any hotter than factory loads. The best option for a K-Hornet upgrade is a Model 54, Model 70, Single Shot, or a Kimber or Ruger.
I load all of my standard Hornet cases to factory specs and have not had any problems with case stretch beyond the normal minimal creep (that can be corrected with full length resizing). For my K-Hornet loads, I neck size only.
Having said that, I have not yet loaded any Hornet cartridges for the Model 54 that I recently acquired. I feel that I can push it above the factory loads a fair bit without any issues other than possibly faster case wear. I am planning to develop a 35-gr V-Max bullet load for the Model 54 using a case full of Lil’Gun powder (approximately 13 grains) to see how it shoots. I am at 14.5 grains for my Model 70 K-Hornet with the same bullet for my next trip to the range, and I am expecting to see 3,500 fps on the chronograph.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
Never owned a Hornet, but I do use the brass to shoot this.
Nice! I’ve noticed while perusing Barnes and Woodard’s book the 22 Hornet case is useful to the reloader. I wasn’t aware that 22 Hornet brass stretched excessively, food for thought. I think most manufacturers discourage the use of reloaded ammunition as a matter of course, Bill. Factory ammunition has come a long way since I started reloading but I think my rifles (and wallet) still prefer my reloads.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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TXGunNut said
Chuck said
Never owned a Hornet, but I do use the brass to shoot this.
Nice! I’ve noticed while perusing Barnes and Woodard’s book the 22 Hornet case is useful to the reloader. I wasn’t aware that 22 Hornet brass stretched excessively, food for thought. I think most manufacturers discourage the use of reloaded ammunition as a matter of course, Bill. Factory ammunition has come a long way since I started reloading but I think my rifles (and wallet) still prefer my reloads.
Mike
Most do because their General Counsel are not noted for their XL cojones, an exception being Bill Ruger’s guy, Stephen Sanetti.
But excessive case stretching and short case life is a known problem for the Hornet in rear-locking actions. Lisle Kilbourn’s main goal for his K-Hornet case modification – the introduction of a shoulder- was to limit stretching. The slight increase in case capacity achieved by reducing taper was incidental, if a bonus.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
January 20, 2023
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Bert H. said
Zebulon said
Mike and Bert, Both of you have more reloading experience than I do, but Mike mentioned reloading the M43 for the Hornet.
In my life I’ve owned 3 Hornet rifles, the first two being rear-locking bolt actions, a Kimber of Oregon 82B and an Anschutz 1732DKL. I noticed that with any loads approaching factory velocities, there was a significant amount of case stretching. The Anschutz even had a dire warning: Wiederladungen munition verboten und die garantie kaput. Ja.
Had I kept either of them, I would have had its chamber reamed to K specs. A feature I believe Bert’s M70 enjoys.
If you are going to stay with the Winchester brand, consider a K chambered M70 at a discount from one with a virginal chamber.
Bert will know and advise case life, which I understand to be considerably improved by Kilbourn’s shoulder. No experience.
I love the look of the 43 Sporting and had an eye out for one. However, given prices for a nice one, I’d hesitate to lengthen the chamber. If I’d found a K version or even an Improved Bee, with a realistic discount, before I blew the budget on the Ruger, I’d have grabbed it. (Went to Bass Pro for safe socks and saw the Ruger’s wavy Walnut at 30 yards.)
My own solution was a Ruger #1AB (Alex Henry forearm and ramped sights, 24″ barrel.) Stretching minimal with all but gopher baroque loads.
PS. unless the weather is howling or raining, I WILL get to the club rimfire range on a weekday to sort out my several 22 issues, .this coming week.
Bill,
I personally do not recommend modifying a Model 43 Hornet to the K-Hornet, especially the Pre-A series rifles. The M43 is perfectly fine with standard 22 Hornet factory ammo, but it can (and will) develop head space issues with ammo any hotter than factory loads. The best option for a K-Hornet upgrade is a Model 54, Model 70, Single Shot, or a Kimber or Ruger.
I load all of my standard Hornet cases to factory specs and have not had any problems with case stretch beyond the normal minimal creep (that can be corrected with full length resizing). For my K-Hornet loads, I neck size only.
Having said that, I have not yet loaded any Hornet cartridges for the Model 54 that I recently acquired. I feel that I can push it above the factory loads a fair bit without any issues other than possibly faster case wear. I am planning to develop a 35-gr V-Max bullet load for the Model 54 using a case full of Lil’Gun powder (approximately 13 grains) to see how it shoots. I am at 14.5 grains for my Model 70 K-Hornet with the same bullet for my next trip to the range, and I am expecting to see 3,500 fps on the chronograph.
Bert
Understood. I have some of the 35 grain .224 V-Max you recommended and have found them exceptionally accurate. I’ve not gone turkey hunting with them (or anything else) and wouldn’t do so because of their construction.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
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I am going off-line for the next several hours while I watch Navy stomp Army’s butt in the CIC cup game that is about to start.
Bert
Edit: That was way too close for comfort, but in the end my Navy brethren are bringing the CIC cup home once again! GO NAVY!!
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 20, 2023
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I will say that, with both the Anschutz and the Kimber rifles, and Hornet loads a bit milder than factory, almost every full-length resizing caused the OAL to grow enough to require trimming, eventually producing a stretch ring detectable by feel inside the case with a bent paper clip — a clear sign of impending separation.
The actions of both these rifles were adapted to the centerfire Hornet from actions originally designed for the rimfire 22 long rifle. The Kimber (Oregon) 82 action is essentially the old Australian SPORTCO rimfire action; the Anschutz 1730/1740 action is a centerfire version of the old model 54 rimfire match action. Both were strengthened for the increased bolt thrust when converted to centerfire but both continued to employ twin lugs locking into recesses in the rear of the receiver.
The successor Kimber (New York) manufacturer did not offer a rear-locking Hornet rifle but has offered in the past, but not presently, rifles for the Hornet using a much stronger mini-Mauser controlled feed, front locking action.
Anschutz no longer produces centerfire rifles based on the rear-locking 1730/1740 action but instead uses a newer design, the 1770/1780 series with gas handling ports and 6 locking lugs that lock directly into the barrel breech. The Model 1771 is available in 22 Hornet.
Because the Winchester Model 43 action appears to be essentialy a beefed up, centerfire version of the single lug, rear locking Model 69A, I had thought it would suffer case stretching similar to what I experienced.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
January 20, 2023
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Bert H. said
I am going off-line for the next several hours while I watch Navy stomp Army’s butt in the CIC cup game that is about to start.
Bert
Edit: That was way too close for comfort, but in the end my Navy brethren are bringing the CIC cup home once again! GO NAVY!!
Missed it today, but Army/Navy is always a good game to watch. Dallas has had a fondness for USNA ever since Staubach won the Heisman and then quarterbacked for the Cowboys.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
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Zebulon said
I will say that, with both the Anschutz and the Kimber rifles, and Hornet loads a bit milder than factory, almost every full-length resizing caused the OAL to grow enough to require trimming, eventually producing a stretch ring detectable by feel inside the case with a bent paper clip — a clear sign of impending separation.
The actions of both these rifles were adapted to the centerfire Hornet from actions originally designed for the rimfire 22 long rifle. The Kimber (Oregon) 82 action is essentially the old Australian SPORTCO rimfire action; the Anschutz 1730/1740 action is a centerfire version of the old model 54 rimfire match action. Both were strengthened for the increased bolt thrust when converted to centerfire but both continued to employ twin lugs locking into recesses in the rear of the receiver.
The successor Kimber (New York) manufacturer did not offer a rear-locking Hornet rifle but has offered in the past, but not presently, rifles for the Hornet using a much stronger mini-Mauser controlled feed, front locking action.
Anschutz no longer produces centerfire rifles based on the rear-locking 1730/1740 action but instead uses a newer design, the 1770/1780 series with gas handling ports and 6 locking lugs that lock directly into the barrel breech. The Model 1771 is available in 22 Hornet.
Because the Winchester Model 43 action appears to be essentialy a beefed up, centerfire version of the single lug, rear locking Model 69A, I had thought it would suffer case stretching similar to what I experienced.
The Model 43 suffers from headspace issues, especially the early production rifles. That stated, 22 Hornet brass is already thin and relatively lightweight, hence it will stretch faster than most other cartridges.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 8, 2024
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Bert, I don’t watch football like I used to. With the exception of the Army/Navy game. What a great game! It took everything Navy had to squeeze out a one point victory. A very hard hitting game. The way football should be played! I guess those squids know how to play football.
March 31, 2009
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Zebulon said
Chuck, that’s a very nice High Wall. A little overbuilt for its chambering but never mind. I assume a .223 groove barrel or is it .224 and the .223 bullet of the Hornet was just because of the availability of the Springfield barrel to Whelen et al.? I always wondered.
The 22 WCF shoots a 45 grain .228″ bullet. Same diameter as the 22 Savage High Power just a lighter bullet.
April 15, 2005
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Bo Rich said
Bert, I don’t watch football like I used to. With the exception of the Army/Navy game. What a great game! It took everything Navy had to squeeze out a one point victory. A very hard hitting game. The way football should be played! I guess those squids know how to play football.
Yes, it was a great game, and played like football is supposed to be played! Navy leads Army in the all-time win category in that very traditional 126-game series.
Bert (U.S. Navy Retired 1979 – 2000)
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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