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Need to ask, were model 65’s serial numbered with in the model 92’s or did they have their own?
This is an interesting topic that often leads to confusion. I say that because M53 rifles are found both in their own series and in the M1892 series, and M55 rifles will be found serial numbered in their own series as well as the M1894 series. Regarding the M53, Madis states, “… the factory intended to serially number the model 53 in its own series…” And it appears they did so for most of the M53 production. It’s interesting they didn’t even try this when they brought out the M65. Regarding M65, it’s interesting that Madis comments, “If we were to judge from the sales of the model 92 and 53, the model 65 is a Winchester that “shouldn’t have been’.” The total sales of less than 6,000 rifles support this statement – given the one million plus M1892’s manufactured. Also of note, Winchester did not serial number the M64 in its own series either, using the M1894 series numbers.
steve004 said
This is an interesting topic that often leads to confusion. I say that because M53 rifles are found both in their own series and in the M1892 series, and M55 rifles will be found serial numbered in their own series as well as the M1894 series. Regarding the M53, Madis states, “… the factory intended to serially number the model 53 in its own series…” And it appears they did so for most of the M53 production. It’s interesting they didn’t even try this when they brought out the M65. Regarding M65, it’s interesting that Madis comments, “If we were to judge from the sales of the model 92 and 53, the model 65 is a Winchester that “shouldn’t have been’.” The total sales of less than 6,000 rifles support this statement – given the one million plus M1892’s manufactured. Also of note, Winchester did not serial number the M64 in its own series either, using the M1894 series numbers.
For the edification of all who are interested;
The Model 53 was serialized in its own sequence from June 18th, 1924 through September 21st, 1927 (serial range 1 – 10874), and then was serialized with the Model 92 thereafter (approximately 4,245 additional rifles). There was no “intended to” concerning the early serial numbers.
The Model 55 was serialized in its own sequence from June 26th, 1924 through March 7th, 1828 (serial range 1 – 12002), and then was serialized with the Model 94 thereafter (approximately 8,600 additional rifles).
Of further note, both the Model 90 and Model 06 were serialized in their own sequence until March 10th, 1926 when they were merged into a single sequence (the Model 90 number range). The last Model 06 in its own sequence was S/N 685999, and the last Model 90 solely in its own sequence was 713199. Beginning on March 11th, 1926 (at S/N 713200) the two models shared the same run of serial numbers (with the “A” and “B” marking on the bottom of the receiver frame eliminated) until the end of production at S/N 854747.
As noted, both the Model 64 and the Model 65 were serialized totally within their parent model’s serial number range for the duration of their production (beginning in early 1933 for both models). In regards to the Model 65 production number, Madis was not accurate. Based on the results of my research survey (which has been ongoing since early 2005), the actual production number for the Model 65 was just shy of 7,800.
It is my belief that the combining of the various model serial number ranges was motivated by a cost cutting effort (Bean counters getting involved) in the waning production years leading up to the Great Depression.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
For the edification of all who are interested;
The Model 53 was serialized in its own sequence from June 18th, 1924 through September 21st, 1927 (serial range 1 – 10874), and then was serialized with the Model 92 thereafter (approximately 4,245 additional rifles). There was no “intended to” concerning the early serial numbers.
The Model 55 was serialized in its own sequence from June 26th, 1924 through March 7th, 1828 (serial range 1 – 12002), and then was serialized with the Model 94 thereafter (approximately 8,600 additional rifles).
Of further note, both the Model 90 and Model 06 were serialized in their own sequence until March 10th, 1926 when they were merged into a single sequence (the Model 90 number range). The last Model 06 in its own sequence was S/N 685999, and the last Model 90 solely in its own sequence was 713199. Beginning on March 11th, 1926 (at S/N 713200) the two models shared the same run of serial numbers (with the “A” and “B” marking on the bottom of the receiver frame eliminated) until the end of production at S/N 854747.
As noted, both the Model 64 and the Model 65 were serialized totally within their parent model’s serial number range for the duration of their production (beginning in early 1933 for both models). In regards to the Model 65 production number, Madis was not accurate. Based on the results of my research survey (which has been ongoing since early 2005), the actual production number for the Model 65 was just shy of 7,800.
It is my belief that the combining of the various model serial number ranges was motivated by a cost cutting effort (Bean counters getting involved) in the waning production years leading up to the Great Depression.
Bert
Bert – I would think the fact that the Winchester factory serial numbered the initial 10,000 plus Model 53 rifles in its own serial number range is fair proof that’s what they intended to do. Later, as you speculate, perhaps because the bean counters initiated some cost saving measures, they strayed from what they had been doing (i.e. what they had intended to do from the start) and changed the practice to rolling them in with the M1892’s.
So is there a serial number to date of manufacture ‘chart’ available for the model 65’s? Or are they all co-mingled with in model 92’s?
steve004 said
Bert – I would think the fact that the Winchester factory serial numbered the initial 10,000 plus Model 53 rifles in its own serial number range is fair proof that’s what they intended to do. Later, as you speculate, perhaps because the bean counters initiated some cost saving measures, they strayed from what they had been doing (i.e. what they had intended to do from the start) and changed the practice to rolling them in with the M1892’s.
Steve,
The phrase “intended to” implies that it was considered, but not actually accomplished. Therefore my statement is accurate.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
oldcrankyyankee said
So is there a serial number to date of manufacture ‘chart’ available for the model 65’s? Or are they all co-mingled with in model 92’s?
In answer to your first question, No, there is not a published “chart”. That stated, I have created an approximate serial number chart based on my research of this model.
In answer to your second question, the Model 65 rifles are all in the Model 92 serial number sequence, but not really co-mingled. The vast majority of the Model 65 serial numbers are in the 1000000 – 1007608 range (I have found (8) of them in the 999644 – 999999 range). Of the (682) total serial numbers I have verified in the 1000000 – 1007608 range, just (11) of them are Model 92s, and they appear early in that range. The Model 65 rifles I have surveyed currently make up 98.39% of all production in the 1000000 – 1007608 serial range.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
steve004 said
– given the one million plus M1892’s manufactured.
Just to split hairs here when you deduct the number of Model 53’s serialized in the 1892/92 range and the fact that Bert has found that approximately 98% of the guns +1000000 are Model 65’s there were in fact a few less than a million Model 1892/92 produced.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
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