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Bert,
My dad and I met up with an old gunsmith that decided to sell all of his guns, tools, ammo, everything. Dad ended up buying a minty (90%) condition Model 64 219 Zipper with a Lyman 56 receiver sight and 26″ barrel. Serial number is 1667980–manufactured in 1949. Does that seem like a rather late serial number for this caliber? It all looks correct, but I thought the 219 Zipper was discontinued in 1941. Is it reasonable that this could have been a parts clean-up gun? What is the latest serial numbered 219 Zipper in your survey? He only paid $1,500 for it so it was well worth the risk. The only thing I scored was a brand new and unused (old stock) in the box Lyman 1A (coded DA) tang sight for $175. What do these sights sell for now? Trying to figure out the age of this sight. The markings on the tang sight reads LYMAN (line 1), MIDDLEFIELD (line 2), CONN.U.S.A. (line 3). Underside is marked 1A DA. Its an orange and black box with a price of $5.50. Any ideas of its age and value?
Thanks,
Don
January 26, 2011
Offline
A few months ago I was looking at a 64 Zipper that was post war, 1947 gun I believe. I think there’s a fair number of them that show up after production had officially ceased, barrels that were made up before the war being used up. I’m sure Bert will have the hard facts when he jumps on here since he’s doing the survey on the M64’s.
~Gary~
Don,
Production of the 219 Zipper was not discontinued in 1941 (and the article I wrote for Collector magazine shows that). In my ongoing survey of the Model 64, the years 1946 to 1948 saw the greatest number made. Regular production of the 219 Zipper was curtailed at the end of 1948 except for special order. The highest serial number I have confirmed is 2184028 (1956). I have found (6) thus far that were made in the years 1950 – 1956.
In my serial number data base, 1667980 would be an early 1950 production, but I may not be completely accurate. I would like to know what the 2-digit year number is that is stamped on the bottom of the barrel… any chance you or your dad could pull it apart to look?
The Lyman No. 1A appears to be a 1940s or early 1950s vintage item. Brad may have a better idea based on the box and price on it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert. I’ll try to talk dad into removing the forearm to take a look at the date stamp. The gun is so nice he might be afraid to. It’s just removing the two screws on the forearm cap and sliding the forearm forward, right?
deerhunter said
Thanks Bert. I’ll try to talk dad into removing the forearm to take a look at the date stamp. The gun is so nice he might be afraid to. It’s just removing the two screws on the forearm cap and sliding the forearm forward, right?
Don,
You also have to remove the pin in the magazine tube retaining ring.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert. I’ll see if I can talk him into removing the forearm. It will likely be next weekend when I can help him. I’ll let you know what we find. Was this serial number new to your survey?
Yes, it was a new entry in the survey, and it is now the 136th 219 Zipper recorded.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
*winchester1886* said
Don,
does your zipper have the bolt peep?
john k.
John,
Don mentioned that it has a Lyman No. 56 on it… that would preclude it having a No. 98A bolt-peep, as the two sights occupy the same space over the top of the bolt.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Don
I wouldn’t know the exact age of the Lyman sight. It’s a little later than what I collect. I looked at some Lyman retail price lists and the 1A was already $4.50 in the 1920s and in 1951 it was $5.50. I look for specific sights and have noticed the ebay auction results or what I pay is a little less than it used to be a few years ago. That doesn’t speak for all sights. The sights I try to buy are quite a bit older and you don’t see a box for them real often. In your situation it sounds like it could be the original box with the sight (is there anything else in the box besides the sight?). I think Matt74 sold some original boxed sights like yours a while back and maybe he will chime in. $175 sounds very fair if it is unused with the original box. Lots of guys would ask a lot more than that for that kind of condition.
Brad
Bert H. said
*winchester1886* said
Don,
does your zipper have the bolt peep?
john k.
John,
Don mentioned that it has a Lyman No. 56 on it… that would preclude it having a No. 98A bolt-peep, as the two sights occupy the same space over the top of the bolt.
Bert
That is correct. No bolt peep on this gun. I wish it did.
hedley lamarr said
Don
I wouldn’t know the exact age of the Lyman sight. It’s a little later than what I collect. I looked at some Lyman retail price lists and the 1A was already $4.50 in the 1920s and in 1951 it was $5.50. I look for specific sights and have noticed the ebay auction results or what I pay is a little less than it used to be a few years ago. That doesn’t speak for all sights. The sights I try to buy are quite a bit older and you don’t see a box for them real often. In your situation it sounds like it could be the original box with the sight (is there anything else in the box besides the sight?). I think Matt74 sold some original boxed sights like yours a while back and maybe he will chime in. $175 sounds very fair if it is unused with the original box. Lots of guys would ask a lot more than that for that kind of condition.
Brad
Thanks Brad. Very helpful information. The sight came with the instruction pamphlet and the two mounting screws in the box.
Don,
A new in the box Lyman 1A as you have described is worth more than what you paid for it. I suspect that you could sell it tomorrow for $250 on ebay or Gunbroker.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
Oops,It was a little early missed the 56 sight in Don,s post.Personally it would make me leery to have a 64 zipper without the bolt peep i would wonder if the barrel was changed.And i know some zipper,s are drilled and tapped for the lyman 56 and also have a bolt peep.Bert do you think the non-tapped receiver version with the bolt peep is more valuable?
john K.
John,
The majority (79) of the (136) 219 Zippers that I have surveyed have the No. 98A bolt-peep sight on them, but that leaves (57) of them without the bolt-peep sight. Of the (136), just (12) of them are not factory drilled & tapped for a receiver sight. I personally would not be leery of a Model 64 219 Zipper that does not have a bolt-peep sight on it, nor I am concerned if it is drilled & tapped for a receiver sight.
In answer to your question, No, I do not believe that the lack of receiver sight holes makes it more valuable.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
*winchester1886* said
Bert,
Oops,It was a little early missed the 56 sight in Don,s post.Personally it would make me leery to have a 64 zipper without the bolt peep i would wonder if the barrel was changed.And i know some zipper,s are drilled and tapped for the lyman 56 and also have a bolt peep.Bert do you think the non-tapped receiver version with the bolt peep is more valuable?
john K.
We looked the rifle over very well and I have serious doubts that it’s a rebarrel. The proof marks on the receiver vs. the barrel are a perfect match as well as the condition of the barrel vs. the rest of the rifle. If it were a rebarrel would some internals of the receiver need to be swapped–cartridge guides, etc? I know the 219 Zipper is a necked down 25-35, but it would make more sense to swap barrels from a 30 WCF or 32 Special to get the best financial gain since the 25-35 is nearly as valuable as the 219 Zipper.
Congratulations to your dad on a great buy. I’ve been watching 219 zippers at auction for a while and ones in similar condition to what you describe are going significantly higher than what he paid. In fact, most are going significantly higher than twice what he paid.
I’m envious.
Thanks Mark. Not very often you come across a deal like that. It’s just a fluke we found out about it. We attended a gun show in Portland on Saturday and were approached by a friend of the seller about 86 guns he was selling and got a phone number. Called the guy that afternoon and went to look at them. By the time we got there, at least half of them were already gone. The 64 Zipper was really the only good one left. He did have a very well used 1886 in 45-90, but we passed on it. He did have a lot of ammo, too. He threw in a box of 1940’s Winchester 219 Zipper ammo with the rifle. Also found a full case of 5,000 rounds of 22 LR (which is nearly impossible to find these days), 2 old boxes of Remington 25-20, 1 box of Remington 32-20, and one old box of Winchester 44-40. Bought all that ammo for $250.00 and split it with dad.
WoW that was a good excursion. I am dreaming about the guns and ammo that were gone first, as I Imagine most others are too ! We all dream of opportunities like this , but I havent come across many real bargains, altho I have had relatively better luck on Nice guns in Canada , last couple years , at soft prices that Ive rarely seen before. Your US prices seem to have firmed up lately from what I see on the net ,and your stronger US$ has priced us Canadians out of your market
Phil
Bert H. said
Don,
Production of the 219 Zipper was not discontinued in 1941 (and the article I wrote for Collector magazine shows that). In my ongoing survey of the Model 64, the years 1946 to 1948 saw the greatest number made. Regular production of the 219 Zipper was curtailed at the end of 1948 except for special order. The highest serial number I have confirmed is 2184028 (1956). I have found (6) thus far that were made in the years 1950 – 1956.
In my serial number data base, 1667980 would be an early 1950 production, but I may not be completely accurate. I would like to know what the 2-digit year number is that is stamped on the bottom of the barrel… any chance you or your dad could pull it apart to look?
The Lyman No. 1A appears to be a 1940s or early 1950s vintage item. Brad may have a better idea based on the box and price on it.
Bert
Bert,
Dad pulled the forearm off today and the barrel is stamped 37. Do you think Winchester had a large number of 219 Zipper barrels made up prior to WW2 and were assembled on guns after the war?
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