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If a rifle was returned to Winchester to have the barrel shortened the new dovetail sight cut does not have blue in it. I once had such a rifle that lettered and it was clear that Winchester had cut down an inventory rifle to make the special order short rifle. It does not make sense that Winchester would remove and replace the barrel and tube to simple get blue into the dovetail which is completely hidden by the front sight anyway. I think the OP’s rifle is perhaps one of these. Very few barrels cut outside the factory have the factory dimensions and rotary mill cut dovetail. Just my opinion based on observation.
CJS57 said
If a rifle was returned to Winchester to have the barrel shortened the new dovetail sight cut does not have blue in it. I once had such a rifle that lettered and it was clear that Winchester had cut down an inventory rifle to make the special order short rifle. It does not make sense that Winchester would remove and replace the barrel and tube to simple get blue into the dovetail which is completely hidden by the front sight anyway. I think the OP’s rifle is perhaps one of these. Very few barrels cut outside the factory have the factory dimensions and rotary mill cut dovetail. Just my opinion based on observation.
I was wondering the same thing since the workmanship and factory dimensions are spot on.
To your point, why would the factory or any other gunsmith take the time to blue the dovetail notch when cutting down a barrel?
I suppose it’s possible that Winchester did the work and the record for this rifle was not updated.
I have been told that anything is possible with Winchester.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Tom Graham - Salmon, Idaho
The gun is what it is. What are they asking for it?
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
Tedk said
The gun is what it is. What are they asking for it?
Seller has not set a price yet that’s why I’m asking you guys for your opinion. Of course everybody wants to get stuff like this for dirt cheap but let’s be realistic here with our guesstimates.
Tom Graham - Salmon, Idaho
CJS57 said
If a rifle was returned to Winchester to have the barrel shortened the new dovetail sight cut does not have blue in it. I once had such a rifle that lettered and it was clear that Winchester had cut down an inventory rifle to make the special order short rifle. It does not make sense that Winchester would remove and replace the barrel and tube to simple get blue into the dovetail which is completely hidden by the front sight anyway. I think the OP’s rifle is perhaps one of these. Very few barrels cut outside the factory have the factory dimensions and rotary mill cut dovetail. Just my opinion based on observation.
I disagree. On the half-dozen or so Model 1885 Rifles I have observed with factory shortened barrels, the barrels were refinished and marked accordingly. The bottom of the barrels (under the forend stock) were marked “J.P.P. REFINISH” and the work order number stamped on the barrel. Additionally, the CFM letters all had an “R&R” entry with the same work order number listed. I was under the impression that the rifle in question does not have an “R&R” entry. In regards to Winchester factory rework, I find it difficult to believe that the barrel on this rifle would not have been marked with at least a work order number.
There are simply too many abnormalities with this rifle to believe that it is original, or even factory reworked.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I have a simple credo for such examples… No (or incorrect) letter, long forend, 5-inch rear sight cut, no buy. Of course if you only want the “heft” of a short rifle as a shooter/hunter and can pay reasonable price, go for it.
Cheers,
B
THREEDFLYER said
CJS57 said
If a rifle was returned to Winchester to have the barrel shortened the new dovetail sight cut does not have blue in it. I once had such a rifle that lettered and it was clear that Winchester had cut down an inventory rifle to make the special order short rifle. It does not make sense that Winchester would remove and replace the barrel and tube to simple get blue into the dovetail which is completely hidden by the front sight anyway. I think the OP’s rifle is perhaps one of these. Very few barrels cut outside the factory have the factory dimensions and rotary mill cut dovetail. Just my opinion based on observation.I was wondering the same thing since the workmanship and factory dimensions are spot on.
To your point, why would the factory or any other gunsmith take the time to blue the dovetail notch when cutting down a barrel?
I suppose it’s possible that Winchester did the work and the record for this rifle was not updated.
I have been told that anything is possible with Winchester.
I appreciate your thoughts.
THREEDFLYER,
I, too, believe that anything is possible with Winchester, and should there ever be a motto about this sort of issue among Winchester people, it should be “Never Say Never.”
Good luck with getting a good handle on the rifle’s current market value!
James
I would think if it was a short rifle the forearm would be 1 inch shorter than standard, it looks full length. T/R
BOBR94 said
I have a simple credo for such examples… No (or incorrect) letter, long forend, 5-inch rear sight cut, no buy. Of course if you only want the “heft” of a short rifle as a shooter/hunter and can pay reasonable price, go for it.Cheers,
B
I agree with BOBR94.
Here’s a 1894 T.D. that letters and does have the longer forearm. The sights are also mentioned in the letter, serial #307292. It shows wear from taking it down. Hope this helps, but probably just adds to the confusion. RDB
Not all 20-inch barreled Short rifles have the 8-3/8″ forend stock. There were at least 10% of them that have the longer 9-3/8″ stock.
The issue with this rifle, is that it letters with a full length barrel, and it does not have an R&R entry.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Well the 1885’s examples from Bert were marked “refinish” so clearly refinished dovetails would have blue in them. Not clear if the barrels were New replacements of cut downs? Or were the guns sent back for complete refinish as well as barrel shortening which would also result in blued dovetails. Were 1885’s treated differently in the earlier letter era vs 94’s in the 1920’s? I don’t have the 1894 long forearm short rifle that convinced me, but it did letter as short heavy barrel and it had clearly been cut down from an inventory rifle with beautifully dressed white metal showing at every new cut in dovetail, rotary dovetail, mag tube end etc. Since I saw one, I figure there are more.
Seems a rifle like this is a lot easier to buy than to sell. Then again, it all depends on the price. I’ll be eager to hear what that price is.
You seem to have talked yourself into bringing it home, Tom. I hope the price makes that possible for you. Since you are used to non-Safe Queens, this one would be a great one to carry and to shoot.
CJS57 said
Well the 1885’s examples from Bert were marked “refinish” so clearly refinished dovetails would have blue in them. Not clear if the barrels were New replacements of cut downs? Or were the guns sent back for complete refinish as well as barrel shortening which would also result in blued dovetails. Were 1885’s treated differently in the earlier letter era vs 94’s in the 1920’s? I don’t have the 1894 long forearm short rifle that convinced me, but it did letter as short heavy barrel and it had clearly been cut down from an inventory rifle with beautifully dressed white metal showing at every new cut in dovetail, rotary dovetail, mag tube end etc. Since I saw one, I figure there are more.
The Model 1885 rifles I refer to were clearly sent back to Winchester to have the barrel shortened only (sadly, one of them was a 36-inch No. 5 barrel, that was cut back to 30-inch). Winchester (James. P. Parker) cut it back, and cut the new sight dovetail, then had it refinished before reassembling it and shipping it back to the customer.
From what I have found in my research, it was standard practice to send any reworked barrel back to the customer in the same condition it would have been in as when it was factory new. While almost anything was possible, I do not believe it was standard (or acceptable) practice for Winchester employees to cut down a barrel, and then leave the new sight dovetail slot and magazine ring rotary milled cuts in the raw.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
All the people that have posted have looked at many more winchesters than I have.
One thing that stuck me was the dove tail was cut with a fairly narrow cutter and cut in 3 passes. The next time I have to remove a sight I will look to see if it is cut with one pass.
I would suspect that the factory would cut the dove tail with one pass and clean it up with a file when needed.
Curious if others have evidence one way or the other.
Dominic
January 26, 2011
Offline
I don’t have a good feeling about this rifle being original, therefore I would purchase as an unverifiable specimen. Its still a great configuration and caliber and will make great shooter. Use the fact that it does not letter to your advantage when negotiating. If the gun lettered as 20″, it may run up to the $3k range. As such, I would haggle around 1500 or less. Just my two cents….
~Gary~
November 7, 2015
Offline
steve004 said
Seems a rifle like this is a lot easier to buy than to sell. Then again, it all depends on the price. I’ll be eager to hear what that price is.
Couldn’t agree more, lots of wisdom in that first sentence. I really like the rifle and feel the workmanship is very good but this gun will be very hard to sell to most serious collectors. If you want it for a shooter and can get it for a shooter price and don’t plan on selling it anytime soon then by all means pay the man and take it home.
Mike
I really think people are forgetting that a huge number of folks that buy these guns on the net and elsewhere don’t know or care if the guns are original or not. It’s a good looking rifle in a good caliber and configuration. It would easily sell and the buyer would be happy. If it was a reworked, sloppy piece of junk, then that would be different. I have a feeling that the OP is smart enough not to pay to much for it. Peter
First off thanks to you folks for the observations and comments regarding this short rifle.
Although my knowledge is primarily of Smith and Wesson Hand Ejectors I am always learning something new.
I have no way of verifying the configuration of the short rifle and since the barrel length is not noted in the records it’s likely that the rifle left the factory with a 26″ barrel. However as many of you stated, anything is possible with Winchester, it was all about getting guns sold and sometimes the record keepers did not do their due diligence.
All that said, I will pursue the rifle and inform the seller of the information I have learned from my post on this forum. If after that the seller states what I feel is a reasonable price I will take it home and enjoy it.
With my S&W collecting I tend to go for original condition unaltered revolvers, but I do own several of what I refer to as “FrankenSmiths” and they are just as interesting to me as the unaltered guns. Of course these guns were purchased below the cost of unaltered guns.
Thanks again for the thoughts,
Keep your powder dry!!
Tom Graham - Salmon, Idaho
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