Model 1892 with "Factory Scope"|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

is it currently on gunbroker

I am not an expert re: anything….   so, with that being said, if the subject rifle is a legitimate “factory drilled for scope” rifle, is it considered `anathema to put the proper pieces back together?  I, for one, can appreciate the task of the process.  My only objections are: 1) the sling swivels?  2) the barrel blank filler.  3) I would try to find period off-set mounts for the scope….  again, I’m no expert… but I do like the look of it…  Re-reading the ad:  the attribution of the scope being original to the gun is clearly not true… simply saying “proper period” would have been sufficient.

Reading between the lines of Twobit’s original and subsequent posts, I’m assuming that Michael suspects that this rifle is not ‘factory original’.  Perhaps he is too trusting and too generous to come right out and state it, but I don’t want to put words in his mouth.

I’d certainly be suspicious of the rifles authenticity given everything Michael has already revealed about it. 

I’d be especially suspicious about the scope mount holes being ‘factory original’ although the seller makes a good case with the proof marks being offset to accommodate the holes.  I’m not an expert, so I’ll leave it here.

But I do recognize that very often these ‘one of a kind’ or ‘extremely rare’ configurations miraculously fall outside of range of serial numbers for which factory letters are available.

It is doubly troubling to me that a Gunbroker seller with such a high rating and long history would provide something as ‘authentic’ when the authenticity comes into question and can not be verified.  How are we ever going to trust anyone on Gunbroker?

Paul 

Ben said
I am not an expert re: anything….   so, with that being said, if the subject rifle is a legitimate “factory drilled for scope” rifle, is it considered `anathema to put the proper pieces back together?  I, for one, can appreciate the task of the process.  My only objections are: 1) the sling swivels?  2) the barrel blank filler.  3) I would try to find period off-set mounts for the scope….  again, I’m no expert… but I do like the look of it…  Re-reading the ad:  the attribution of the scope being original to the gun is clearly a lie… simply saying “proper period” would have been sufficient.

  

“of the scope being original to the gun is clearly a lie… simply saying “proper period” would have been sufficient.”

Austin here. I am not a liar, stop with that garbage. The scope was with the rifle when I received it, so how could my conjecture about the scope being the original be a lie? Only Michael (1892 police) knew that because he tracks every single 1892 sale with detailed notes (I respect that Michael – tounge in cheek comment). This IS a real factory D&T for a scope gun, no doubt about it. Sure, I put a period marbles tang sight on it and pocketed the Winchester vernier (yummy). I also painstakingly matched a replacement buttstock, the other had a bunch of issues. And guess what? I fully disclosed that butt stock replacement in the description. But, nobody will bring that up. They would rather complain that the sights were swapped and not mentioned and other minor discrepencies or verbiage. So, before you guys run me throught the ringer again… Just remember, my goal is to be a good salesman. Not to appease the archair quarterbacks. I have a young family to provide for. Believe it or not, I do have sruples. But, yes I will add an old leg o’ mutton case to jazz up the package, I will try to help the curb appeal of a gun. BUT I do not sell fake crap. And if I feel it is important for the potential buyers to know, I will disclose it. 

PS – Yes, the originality of the drilled and tapped holes are subjective. What isn’t? But I know for a fact that they are correct. A proof mark cannot be hidden entirely below the current holes. Factory drilled and tapped holes should all be consistent depth with some chamfer on the opening. Neatness is important. These holes check all of the boxes. Then of course there is the proof mark – when bubba fakes a prook mark it will not match the receiver proof. There were probably hundereds of hand cut proof stamps used. They all look different too. Look how nicely they match on this offset barrel proof – the “P” has a long bow that is not always seen. Not to mention the wonderful age and honest look of the markings. 

Have a good one guys. 

I did reword my phrasing regarding the scope… from “lie” to “not true” before you posted your reply (I didn’t see any followup replies when I corrected my statement.  However, from the previous auction sales, the scope isn’t original with the gun.   My fault for not looking closer at the current gunbroker ad, I saw the swivels on the other posts… I’ll be the first to confess to “pocketing” desirable sights.  I can appreciate the efforts to put the right pieces together… and as I said, I like it.        

Nevada Paul said

twobit said

I am in the middle of baking bread so in and out of Winchester world today.  My only reason for posting this was to advise others of the rifle’s history as I have known it.  When doing research like I do it hands me a double edge sword of knowledge.  Do I keep my “mouth shut” when I see something that I have knowledge of I can put the information out there and let others decide how they want to use it.  I have communicated with Austin many times on specific rifles and I find his listings very well done and trustworthy.  Being retired and with a hand full of other hobbies I do commit A LOT of time keeping up with the two surveys that I work on.  The past 4 days I have been at at for about 6 hours a day.  I will gladly answer any questions that anyone has and I believe that the free flow of information has value to everyone in the collecting community.  A couple years ago there was a landslide of fake Model 61 rifles being pawned off to collectors as original.  I would like to think that since I started blowing the whistle on the sellers that the practice has had to find other venues to work in.  I have not found a fake in more than 2 years.  Austin is not the only seller who realizes that there are several “policemen” working on many Winchester models.  It helps keep us all on out toes and limits the amount of license a seller may try to use in their descriptions.  

If you go back and read my original post it is simple a statement of facts and their is no slander or malice included.  I agree with others that returning the gun to a previous configuration CAN be acceptable to some collectors but I also have no doubt that there are some who ONLY want a rifle that is 100% original.  There is no doubt in my mind that the rifle left the factory as drilled and tapped for a scope.  I have two of these myself and they are identical.

Michael

  

Michael, you do a great service here and likely elsewhere with your postings and tracking of these firearms.  Please keep up the good work for all of our sakes.  Please don’t ever feel the need to ‘keep your mouth shut’ on these issues.

Austin makes some good points about the rifle in question and his ethics as a seller.

Best option, IMHO, is for all of us, buyer and seller alike, to be as informed as possible about any potential purchase.

Paul

  

I couldn’t have said it better Paul, as I agree!

Anthony