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Hello all,
I received a PM on Saturday from a fellow member who also lives in Houston and who was attending the Houston Gun Collectors show this past weekend. He had spied a 16 inch OB sporting rifle in 44 WCF at a table and the price was $2000 and a copy of the factory letter was there also. Too good to be true. How could you go wrong?? Apparently the gun had a lot of lookers and discussion. BUT there are a million things (slight exaggeration) wrong in so many ways with the whole thing. 1. SN 71089 was originally manufactured as a 44 WCF standard SRC. 2. The font style of the SN is totally wrong for that range. 3. The “letter” states the rifle was in and out of the warehouse in 1898 and 1899 when in fact the real rifle was built and shipped during mid 1897. 4. The upper tang on the receiver has a number 3 style tang stamp which did not come into use until 1909. 5. Both the caliber stamp and the number 3 style barrel address, which did not come into existence until 1904, and both were not positioned on the left flat until 1910. 6. On a 16 inch gun the rear sight would be located closer to the receiver face that the position on the shortened barrel. 7. The barrel address is positioned incorrectly relative to the metal end cap. 8. And I would be that if I had attended and had a ruler that the front sight and magazine retaining band are not positioned correctly. 9. And last but not least (thanks Al) the letter is a fake also!!!!
Sorry that I could not have attended due to previous commitments because I would have loved to stand there and question the seller about all this and GLADLY point out the errors to any and all who walked by.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Michael,
Thank you for the education. Seems this model 1892 was put together from a mixture of parts? Do you think the letter is a fake? Are you working on a Model 1892 book? It would be nice to have a reference.
Al
tionesta1 said
Michael,Thank you for the education. Seems this model 1892 was put together from a mixture of parts? Do you think the letter is a fake? Are you working on a Model 1892 book? It would be nice to have a reference.
Al
The “letter” is ABSOLUTELY a fake!!! Yes a book will eventually be written and produced. Until then send pics and ask questions guys. Happy to help.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Online
twobit said
tionesta1 said
Michael,Thank you for the education. Seems this model 1892 was put together from a mixture of parts? Do you think the letter is a fake? Are you working on a Model 1892 book? It would be nice to have a reference.
Al
The “letter” is ABSOLUTELY a fake!!! Yes a book will eventually be written and produced. Until then send pics and ask questions guys. Happy to help.
Michael
Look closely at the letter. “16 inch” has obviously been added to the letter by an amateur after the fact. It doesn’t even line up correctly and looks to be a different/lighter font. Also, on legit letters that I’ve seen “Octagon barrel” and “16 inches” would be on a separate lines–not added together on the same line. What a joke…
Don
deerhunter said
Look closely at the letter. “16 inch” has obviously been added to the letter by an amateur after the fact. It doesn’t even line up correctly and looks to be a different/lighter font. Also, on legit letters that I’ve seen “Octagon barrel” and “16 inches” would be on a separate lines–not added together on the same line. What a joke…
Don
Don,
I was driving, actually sitting at a red light and looked at the first photo of the barrel address and just starting laughing at how phony it was.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Don,
I see what you’re saying about the barrel type and length. The letters I have say:
Barrel Type:
Barrel Length:
Al
Shouldn’t the letter also have an embossed seal in the lower right hand corner? I see it’s dated 1994, when did Cody begin using the seal?
Erin
I’m the person who was at the gun show and sent pics/questions to Michael. A big thanks to Michael for posting the pics and info. Andy Kessner, another WACA member, was at the show. He looked at the rifle and in less than 30 seconds concluded it was a really bad forgery. Word spread from there. As Michael wrote, there were plenty of people interested in looking at this fakery. I lingered by the seller’s table for a few hours on Sunday and engaged several people about the rifle, making sure the seller knew I was telling them it was a fake. I overheard him say to another vendor he was going to call security on me but he never made good on that promise. Too bad!
Fellow WACA members are very generous with their knowledge. Don’t be afraid to ask, be willing to share and definitely don’t stay silent when something is clearly not right. I continue to be amazed at how bad some of the fakery is..I shouldn’t be but I am. If this was an honest rifle, I’d expect to see at least a $4,000-$5,000 price tag. So the “too good to be true” radar shot thru my head and into the stratosphere. After that, I have to say it was simply kinda fun to make sure dozens of people wandering the show knew this was a fake rifle.
An I’ll send an unsolicited plug towards Andy and his wife Candy. A very nice, outgoing and knowledgeable team. I thought they had the best prices on their rifles and carbines at their tables, and the vast majority seemed reasonable to me. Consider their offerings if you happen upon them.
Greg
Erin Grivicich said
Shouldn’t the letter also have an embossed seal in the lower right hand corner? I see it’s dated 1994, when did Cody begin using the seal?
Erin
Erin,
I will reach out to Cody and ask when they started that practice.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
spursfan said
I’m the person who was at the gun show and sent pics/questions to Michael. A big thanks to Michael for posting the pics and info. Andy Kessner, another WACA member, was at the show. He looked at the rifle and in less than 30 seconds concluded it was a really bad forgery. Word spread from there. As Michael wrote, there were plenty of people interested in looking at this fakery. I lingered by the seller’s table for a few hours on Sunday and engaged several people about the rifle, making sure the seller knew I was telling them it was a fake. I overheard him say to another vendor he was going to call security on me but he never made good on that promise. Too bad!Fellow WACA members are very generous with their knowledge. Don’t be afraid to ask, be willing to share and definitely don’t stay silent when something is clearly not right. I continue to be amazed at how bad some of the fakery is..I shouldn’t be but I am. If this was an honest rifle, I’d expect to see at least a $4,000-$5,000 price tag. So the “too good to be true” radar shot thru my head and into the stratosphere. After that, I have to say it was simply kinda fun to make sure dozens of people wandering the show knew this was a fake rifle.
An I’ll send an unsolicited plug towards Andy and his wife Candy. A very nice, outgoing and knowledgeable team. I thought they had the best prices on their rifles and carbines at their tables, and the vast majority seemed reasonable to me. Consider their offerings if you happen upon them.
Greg
Greg,
I am so happy that you reached out and asked vs getting with me AFTER a possible bad purchase with most likely no chance of getting your money back. This rifle was certainly one of the worst examples I have seen of a fake and altered rifle. You were very much correct with the “too good to be true” feeling to send up warning flags. To everyone else please do the same as Greg did. Shoot me an email or message if you have questions before you pull out your wallet. I can’t promise that I am sitting at home waiting at the computer but I will do my best to get back to you ASAP.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
Erin,
I will reach out to Cody and ask when they started that practice.
Michael
Thanks Michael,
It will be good to know for future reference what date Cody actually started embossing their letters. That in itself will instantly point out fake letters produced after Cody started the seal process.
Erin
Erin Grivicich said
Thanks Michael,
It will be good to know for future reference what date Cody actually started embossing their letters. That in itself will instantly point out fake letters produced after Cody started the seal process.
Erin
I received a reply from Jessica Bennett at Cody and she started working there during 2006 and the seal was already in use then. This question may be best answered by some of the members here to take a look at their old letters and let us know.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Folks,
I will look later in the day and see if I can pin down a year when it may have started, and chip in with what I find. In the meantime, and going on what may be fragile memory, I think David Kennedy started the embossing process due to letters being faked. Now, don’t ask me when I think he arrived as I have absolutely no idea at this time. I do remember meeting him at our WACA show the first year, though, just no idea what year that may have been.
Tim
Looking at the letter (first picture) I can see a very slight emboss. you have to zoom in as far as you can.
Al
Folks,
Here is what I find ref my letters. Good thing I don’t entirely rely on memory as it is not always accurate!
Oct 1990, by Gael Oswalt, raised seal, no watermark in the paper
Mar 2000, Dena Hollowell, seal, no mark
Jun 2003, Waddy Colvert, seal, no mark
Oct 2003 Waddy C. , seal, no mark
Aug 2004 Wady C. . NO seal, no mark (do I get a refund?!)
Jun 2005 David Kennedy, seal, no mark
Dec 2005, David K., , seal, no mark
Jul 2006, David K., ,seal no mark
May 22007, Jesi, seal, watermark in the paper
Jul 2016, Jesi, seal, watermark
I am now guessing what I recall was David saying they were adding the watermark. Obviously the raised seal has been used for some time. The earliest above was significantly larger than later. Hope this helps if you are trying to authenticate a letter. Others likely can narrow changes even more.
Tim
twobit said
I received a reply from Jessica Bennett at Cody and she started working there during 2006 and the seal was already in use then. This question may be best answered by some of the members here to take a look at their old letters and let us know.
Michael
The oldest letter I have from the Cody records that has the seal embossed on the letter is from 10/1993. It is signed by Howard Madaus, Curator. When I first started collecting I was not a Cody member and even after I joined I didn’t buy letters. I now have letters for all my guns and many are dated the same day. Got a package deal.
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